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11-02-2015, 10:18 AM | #20191 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
Well just as you point out, many of the specialties aren't actual MOS's--Long Arm's first card doesn't even say EOD; it says Offensive Tactician, whatever that it is--so we have to interpret them. You certainly could call anyone one with EOD an 89D. No doubt. But when I see demo and EOD together , I prefer to go with 12B since its easier to explain.
Quote:
Demolitions training is part of Ranger School. I don't know about RASP but there are basic and advanced Breaching / Demolitions training available within the Regiment.
Advanced demolitions is also part of the Ranger Reconnaissance Company's Operator Training Course. I forgot to add (to a post several pages back) that USAF Combat Controllers also receive demolitions training. Thanks for the clarification! I was also not aware that CC's received demolitions training. BTW are there any Joes anyone would consider a Combat Controller? |
11-02-2015, 11:57 AM | #20192 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Bombstrike comes the closest in my opinion. She's described as FAC but plays the role of a JTAC, so that's what I use her as, though I've thought of making her a CCT who is JTAC certified, not unusual at all, but she would need to be at least an E-5 at that point.
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11-02-2015, 12:43 PM | #20193 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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I've generally read "MOS" to simply mean "stuff the soldier is trained to do," since, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the description is often pretty vague. Also, I don't fixate on pushing everyone purely into the American personnel system. A lot of other armies have different structures and qualifications, so I sometimes assume a guy has simply got qualified on a foreign or other government agency course. Sometimes that's specifically mentioned, like Scarlet or Crank Case doing SAS courses. Sometimes I just make an assumption (especially with the jungle warfare crowd I bet, for example, that Claymore has gone through Brazil's jungle warfare course; I can picture Alpine on a Norwegian ski course). The guys with vague demolitions quals may simply have done foreign Assault Pioneer courses.
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11-02-2015, 01:25 PM | #20194 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Having a guy be straight EOD doesn't really make sense to me for the type of Unit the Joes are. I would think they would all need to be expert operators first and foremost, with additional skills that come in handy when needed.
I guess a 18C would be more in line with what I envision all the Demolitions/EOD/Combat Engineer Joes, but that clearly is not how they get portrayed. I think the Combat Engineers were meant to be the Bridge builders and the Demolitions/Explosives were meant to be more 18C 18C? Zap, Short-Fuze- not so much Snake-Eyes-yes Tripwire - Marvel(no) IDW (yes) Blowtorch-No Ripcord-Definitely Tollbooth, Steam-Roller, Effects, Crossfire, Clean-Sweep? Not really Bazooka Lightfoot? Maybe Taurus, Mercer, Static-Line, Wreckage, Tunnel-Rat, Side Track - yeah probably. Stalker and Flint have EOD/Demoltions in there once but they are more leaders than 18Cs. I wonder does Delta have 18C's? Similar to the Joes I can see them swooping in blowing shit up, and occasionally running into booby traps or having to dismantle a ticking timebomb (Although that is probably only in the movies.)
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
11-02-2015, 07:16 PM | #20195 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
Quote:
I've generally read "MOS" to simply mean "stuff the soldier is trained to do," since, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the description is often pretty vague. Also, I don't fixate on pushing everyone purely into the American personnel system. A lot of other armies have different structures and qualifications, so I sometimes assume a guy has simply got qualified on a foreign or other government agency course. Sometimes that's specifically mentioned, like Scarlet or Crank Case doing SAS courses. Sometimes I just make an assumption (especially with the jungle warfare crowd I bet, for example, that Claymore has gone through Brazil's jungle warfare course; I can picture Alpine on a Norwegian ski course). The guys with vague demolitions quals may simply have done foreign Assault Pioneer courses.
Quote:
Having a guy be straight EOD doesn't really make sense to me for the type of Unit the Joes are. I would think they would all need to be expert operators first and foremost, with additional skills that come in handy when needed.
I guess a 18C would be more in line with what I envision all the Demolitions/EOD/Combat Engineer Joes, but that clearly is not how they get portrayed. I think the Combat Engineers were meant to be the Bridge builders and the Demolitions/Explosives were meant to be more 18C 18C? Zap, Short-Fuze- not so much Snake-Eyes-yes Tripwire - Marvel(no) IDW (yes) Blowtorch-No Ripcord-Definitely Tollbooth, Steam-Roller, Effects, Crossfire, Clean-Sweep? Not really Bazooka Lightfoot? Maybe Taurus, Mercer, Static-Line, Wreckage, Tunnel-Rat, Side Track - yeah probably. Stalker and Flint have EOD/Demoltions in there once but they are more leaders than 18Cs. I wonder does Delta have 18C's? Similar to the Joes I can see them swooping in blowing shit up, and occasionally running into booby traps or having to dismantle a ticking timebomb (Although that is probably only in the movies.) I wonder a lot about Delta. I would imagine it would be that the new Delta soldier leaves his MOS behind and becomes an "Operator" with new skillsets. Maybe the "Operator" is an MOS that the Department of Defense does not publicly advertise. Delta of course would have their Support Squadron with EOD, Dog Handlers, Signals, etc that may not necessarily have been through the Operator training course. This is how I imagine my Joes. The ones on the Sabre Squadrons have gone through the "Joe Operator course" (guys like Grunt, Stalker, Roadblock, etc) whereas guys like Mutt (Dog Handler), Tripwire (EOD), etc have not and are on the Support Squadron. Of course part of me wants to assign them as Operators as well and be part of the Sabre Squadrons but what use would their specialties be? Would Mutt be able to have Junkyard along on every mission or would he be only part of missions that require a working military dog? Likewise with Tripwire, if he is part of an Assault Team doing a direct action mission would he be able to split from the rest of his team while he looks for IED's or would be follow in behind an Assault Team doing his job while the Assaulters do their's? On a side note I wonder if the Delta Force Sabre Squadron HQ member's have to go through the Operator course like their Assaulters and Recce guys do? |
11-02-2015, 08:06 PM | #20196 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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There is no Delta MOS. The operator retains whatever MOS he had when he qualified, though it's been said that many transition to an 18 MOS for better career management. There is an SQI "T" though. It would be too much hassle to classify the soldier's MOS because the Army has to track his career and pay him like everyone else. The unit is dicussed formally but it's known existence doesn't really compromise it.
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11-02-2015, 10:24 PM | #20197 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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From my reading, all SOF support personnel go thru a specific course before being able to serve alongside SOF units. The most deployed service support guys to an ODA are usually mechanics and cooks. They get trained to not just do their jobs but also to maybe man a support weapon if need be (Hello Roadblock and Clutch).
They also get on the job multi-skilled Support training so the cook can do things like pick up a phone and arrange Supply air drops, conduct a Sling Load operation and other skills within the Quartermaster skill set. Likewise, mechanics are trained in fixing things like generators and things in addition to the Motor maintenance. In MARSOC, all Combat Support Marines (MWD, EOD, JTAC, Intel, Comms) go thru USMC Special Operations Capabilities Specialist (SOCS)training and at completion receive the MOS 8071). All Special Operations Combat Service Support personnel (Cooks, Mechanics, Admin, etc) go thru the USMC Special Operations Combat Service Support Specialist (SOCS-Ss). From the USSOCOM website; "STC is a two month course that prepares combat support and combat service support personnel for operating in a SOF environment with instruction in such as areas as communications, close air support/call for fire (CAS/CFF), foreign weapons, marksmanship, machine gunnery, tactical combat casualty care (TCCC), land navigation, patrolling, military operations in urban terrain (MOUT), convoy operations, and Improvised Explosive Device defeat. Following STC, specialty tracks build on Marine Corps MOS structure to enhance specific skills for Marines in intelligence, communications, explosive ordnance disposal, joint terminal air control (JTAC), and multi-purpose canine fields. A secondary MOS of 8071 is assigned to these combat support enablers in order to track their assignments and career progressions. Select combat support enablers will be provided the opportunity to attend advanced language training courses once they are assigned to the Marine Special Operations Support Group, MSOSG." US Army CSS personnel assigned to Special Forces Groups will go thru the SPECIAL FORCES BASIC COMBAT COURSE SUPPORT (SFBCCS) and they get the ASI of "S". Combat Support Personnel have their own pipeline (CBRNE, EOD). All Ranger personnel wil go thru RASP and all NCO's will eventually go thru Ranger School if they want to stay in the unit. MWD handlers are sourced from the new MWD MOS they created a few years ago but these days alot are sourced from within SF and Ranger communities and they go thru Special Operations Forces Multi-Purpose Canine (SOFMPC). There are quite a few SF Weapons Sergeants who transition to SF Dog Handlers. Navy and Air Force are similar but I haven't started looking into those 2 service specific training schools yet. |
11-02-2015, 10:48 PM | #20198 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
|
Also, one has to remember that 12B Combat Engineers and 89D EOD Technicians are very different. Essentially they have the same sort of basic training but at the end of the day they are two different Career Management Fields. You can't take a 12B (or even a 18D) and after a few weeks training expect them to do the same job as an EOD.
They can train to be an Explosive Ordnance Clearance Agent (EOCA)but the levels are quite different. Anyone with Demolitions training can place a charge next to a bomb and blow it up but they're not actually defusing it. An 18D can do one better especially with booby traps and landmines and can do a quick de-pinning job or 'render safe'. The EOD guys however are trained to take any piece of ordnance (conventional, underwater, nuclear, chemical) and not render safe but take it apart for further examination (Weapons Intelligence / Forensics etc). EOD guys are also routinely detailed to US Secret Service and Embassies and get an additional civilian clothing allowance (for snazzy suits) EOCA training closes the gap between EOD and Combat Engineers especially in light of IED's but they are forbidden by Army Regulation to dispose of enemy caches and ammunition without EOD supervision and they are not first responders to WMD events. Also, I don't think Special Mission Unit operators check their previous MOS at the door. If you're a Ranger or SF Medic, you need to keep your certifications up every year otherwise you lose that cert (and the bonus pay attached). It just means that if you join Delta as an operator than that is your primary focus. You join to be an Operator or a Medic. If you go the Operator route, you focus on your CQB and if a guy go down you keep shooting till it's safe to check on your team mate whereas if you go the medic route, that's your primary focus and so when a guy goes down, you run over and provide casualty care while the other guys continue shooting. That's how I understand it. |
11-03-2015, 07:38 AM | #20199 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
|
Quote:
There is no Delta MOS. The operator retains whatever MOS he had when he qualified, though it's been said that many transition to an 18 MOS for better career management. There is an SQI "T" though. It would be too much hassle to classify the soldier's MOS because the Army has to track his career and pay him like everyone else. The unit is dicussed formally but it's known existence doesn't really compromise it.
Quote:
From my reading, all SOF support personnel go thru a specific course before being able to serve alongside SOF units. The most deployed service support guys to an ODA are usually mechanics and cooks. They get trained to not just do their jobs but also to maybe man a support weapon if need be (Hello Roadblock and Clutch).
They also get on the job multi-skilled Support training so the cook can do things like pick up a phone and arrange Supply air drops, conduct a Sling Load operation and other skills within the Quartermaster skill set. Likewise, mechanics are trained in fixing things like generators and things in addition to the Motor maintenance. In MARSOC, all Combat Support Marines (MWD, EOD, JTAC, Intel, Comms) go thru USMC Special Operations Capabilities Specialist (SOCS)training and at completion receive the MOS 8071). All Special Operations Combat Service Support personnel (Cooks, Mechanics, Admin, etc) go thru the USMC Special Operations Combat Service Support Specialist (SOCS-Ss). From the USSOCOM website; "STC is a two month course that prepares combat support and combat service support personnel for operating in a SOF environment with instruction in such as areas as communications, close air support/call for fire (CAS/CFF), foreign weapons, marksmanship, machine gunnery, tactical combat casualty care (TCCC), land navigation, patrolling, military operations in urban terrain (MOUT), convoy operations, and Improvised Explosive Device defeat. Following STC, specialty tracks build on Marine Corps MOS structure to enhance specific skills for Marines in intelligence, communications, explosive ordnance disposal, joint terminal air control (JTAC), and multi-purpose canine fields. A secondary MOS of 8071 is assigned to these combat support enablers in order to track their assignments and career progressions. Select combat support enablers will be provided the opportunity to attend advanced language training courses once they are assigned to the Marine Special Operations Support Group, MSOSG." US Army CSS personnel assigned to Special Forces Groups will go thru the SPECIAL FORCES BASIC COMBAT COURSE SUPPORT (SFBCCS) and they get the ASI of "S". Combat Support Personnel have their own pipeline (CBRNE, EOD). All Ranger personnel wil go thru RASP and all NCO's will eventually go thru Ranger School if they want to stay in the unit. MWD handlers are sourced from the new MWD MOS they created a few years ago but these days alot are sourced from within SF and Ranger communities and they go thru Special Operations Forces Multi-Purpose Canine (SOFMPC). There are quite a few SF Weapons Sergeants who transition to SF Dog Handlers. Navy and Air Force are similar but I haven't started looking into those 2 service specific training schools yet. Quote:
Also, one has to remember that 12B Combat Engineers and 89D EOD Technicians are very different. Essentially they have the same sort of basic training but at the end of the day they are two different Career Management Fields. You can't take a 12B (or even a 18D) and after a few weeks training expect them to do the same job as an EOD.
They can train to be an Explosive Ordnance Clearance Agent (EOCA)but the levels are quite different. Anyone with Demolitions training can place a charge next to a bomb and blow it up but they're not actually defusing it. An 18D can do one better especially with booby traps and landmines and can do a quick de-pinning job or 'render safe'. The EOD guys however are trained to take any piece of ordnance (conventional, underwater, nuclear, chemical) and not render safe but take it apart for further examination (Weapons Intelligence / Forensics etc). EOD guys are also routinely detailed to US Secret Service and Embassies and get an additional civilian clothing allowance (for snazzy suits) EOCA training closes the gap between EOD and Combat Engineers especially in light of IED's but they are forbidden by Army Regulation to dispose of enemy caches and ammunition without EOD supervision and they are not first responders to WMD events. Also, I don't think Special Mission Unit operators check their previous MOS at the door. If you're a Ranger or SF Medic, you need to keep your certifications up every year otherwise you lose that cert (and the bonus pay attached). It just means that if you join Delta as an operator than that is your primary focus. You join to be an Operator or a Medic. If you go the Operator route, you focus on your CQB and if a guy go down you keep shooting till it's safe to check on your team mate whereas if you go the medic route, that's your primary focus and so when a guy goes down, you run over and provide casualty care while the other guys continue shooting. That's how I understand it. Let's use Mutt (a working dog handler) as an example. Let's say he joined as an Operator and is assigned to a six-man Assault Team. Perhaps his Troop (he is on Troop One) is back at base for R&R and Troop Two is sent in to do a direct action mission but they need a MWD to provide security/sniff out IED, etc. Troop Two does not have a MWD assigned to it so would Mutt be forced to take his R&R early and ship out with them? Or would Mutt just originally be assigned to the MWD section on the Support Squadron and be available to any Troop without leaving a Troop understaffed (such as the case with Troop One). Same with the EOD guys, are they Operators or Support? I keep going back and forth on the matter so I am curious how it works in the real world and how everyone else structures their EOD guys, MWD, etc. EDIT: Forgot to add, I am basically trying to use the SAS and Delta as my guides. I know information is not all available on them but it is nice to piece together what we know. Last edited by john shaft; 11-03-2015 at 07:42 AM.. |
11-03-2015, 09:04 AM | #20200 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
|
Well I don't know how it works within the SMU's but I've organized my support squadron similar to how the SEALs and MARSOC Raiders use their Combat Support guys and how the Australian SASR uses them.
I have a Combat Support Squadron with a small HQ element, under that is an assortment of Troops, one each for CBRN, EOD, MWD. As an example, the MWD Troop has; HQ Cell which admin control of each team in regard to pay, training, leave and deployment scheduling etc. It has a Troop Commander, a Troop NCO who doubles as the MWD Program Manager. Then 3 teams, each team is attached to one of the Squadrons and goes through the same work up, deployment, recycle schedule as the Squadron they support. This way new Handlers don't have to go through constant Standard Operating Procedure changes and having to work with unfamiliar team mates (this sort of thing can play havoc with the dog). Each team is made up of 3 Dog Handlers and a Kennel Master. They can deploy individually or as a team. Doctrinally each dog handler is assigned to each of the 4 Troops so it works out to 1 Handler and Dog per Troop. MARSOC has 2 MWD teams (Handler and Dog) per 4 MSOT's. So it breaks down to; HQ Cell Team 1 (attached to A Squadron) Team 2 (attached to B Squadron) Team 3 (attached to C Squadron) Team 4 (Reserve / Float) * * I'd like to build up to one or two extra 'floater' teams that are held in reserve. EOD and CBRN are the same and the Signal and Intel guys work the same way. |
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