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08-11-2012, 11:33 PM | #17891 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
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Quote:
Ok thanks! That does raise an interesting question on Wreckage though. If he was part of the cadre at JWTC, could he be considered a Marine? His original filecard states that he perfected his craft at the Army Jungle Warfare Training Center. I assumed Army because of that, but if the instructors there are Marines, then I may have to rethink that.
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I see. The writer may have meant the Army's JOTC at Ft Sherman in Panama. It was called the JWTC but was renamed JOTC in '68 and the 8th SFG took over operations in '70 or '71 so that might make him Special Forces, perhaps an 18C4H00QB MOS code would be more accurate but that would rank him as an SFC, not an E-4 SPC, which is too low.
18C = SF Engineer SGT (demolitions) 4 = skill level (E-7) H = Instructor SQI (they don't use "8") 00 = no ASI (or W8 for HALO) QB = Spanish-Caribbean LIC (or some other Latin American language) And 18C would make the most sense as an MOS for the character. The only time the other letter/number identifiers are used is in a DD-214 or some other long form personnel file. 18C is what the soldier would refer to himself as. He might be Master EOD qualified... that would make sense.
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08-13-2012, 09:34 AM | #17892 |
Cobra Viper
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Yeah, the 7th and 20th SFGs ran the school in Panama for years - see our discussion on Recondo from years ago - To my mind, this is the best understanding of Wreckage. Though Marines have certainly served as instructors at Army schools from time to time, it seems to me that the filecard's intention in mentioning the Army is to confer the notion that Wreckage comes from the Army. My rule of thumb is this (mainly because this is the way Hama wrote it): Unless the a different service branch is made obvious, or if a specialty just doesn't work in the Army, the Army is the default branch of service for the Joes.
And 18C would make the most sense as an MOS for the character. The only time the other letter/number identifiers are used is in a DD-214 or some other long form personnel file. 18C is what the soldier would refer to himself as. He might be Master EOD qualified... that would make sense. Would 18C be the Special Forces equivilent of 89D? Or is there a distinction between the two specialties besides 18C being done by a special forces soldier? If so, could I then list his secondary MOS as 89D? If not, do Special Forces soldiers ever have a secondary MOS of 11B? |
08-13-2012, 11:02 AM | #17893 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Have we ever really went into Wreckage's possible Special Forces background? I like it. It makes sense. It's just what Jungle Warfare school does the Army currently use? Ft Sherman (Panama is closed isn't it?) And the new JWTC (Camp Gonsalves) in Okinawa is a Marine school. Does the army use that one? and if so who gets to go? Or is there a new school for the Army?
I've been using ROC Beachhead that came with Rollbar as Wreckage since I got him.
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08-13-2012, 11:59 AM | #17894 |
Cobra Viper
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Have we ever really went into Wreckage's possible Special Forces background? I like it. It makes sense. It's just what Jungle Warfare school does the Army currently use? Ft Sherman (Panama is closed isn't it?) And the new JWTC (Camp Gonsalves) in Okinawa is a Marine school. Does the army use that one? and if so who gets to go? Or is there a new school for the Army?
I've been using ROC Beachhead that came with Rollbar as Wreckage since I got him. He is Army (per Oliver's observation that there is no evidence for another branch and his specialty works for Army) Airborne qualified (based on Hama's email) Ranger qualified (based on Hama's email) He is one of the older Joes (per Tanksmasher the Army's JWTC changed it's name in 68, meaning Wreckage must have been there before the name change) The following assumptions I'm also confident of, but I think there is less evidence for these in the original file card. Special Forces (based on the fact that the card states he was part of the cadre at the Army's JWTC and the JWTC was run by Special Forces, however per Oliver Special Forces didn't take the JWTC over until 70-71 and we've got pretty good evidence that Wreckage was there before 68, maybe he was still there in 70-71 and the file card uses the pre-68 name for the JWTC because he started there pre-68?) Vietnam vet (based off that fact that he may have been in Special Forces during the late 60's to early 70's, on this one I may be way out on a limb but if I have his age right, he's an expert in jungle warfare, and he is good with explosives/booby traps then he would seem to be a very useful soldier for the war in Vietnam) Anybody have other thoughts on this? |
08-13-2012, 12:45 PM | #17895 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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I don't think he's old at all. I think the JWTC is just a sloppy filecard reference. Muskrat has it too. No one but maybe the first 5 series of Joes maybe Vietnam vets. The one is Panama closed in 1999. As an E-4 he would barely have time to go through Q-courses. Don't get me wrong I like him as a Green Beret.
What Hama email are you referring to?
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08-13-2012, 01:08 PM | #17896 |
Hog Driver
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Quote:
The following assumptions I'm also confident of, but I think there is less evidence for these in the original file card.
Special Forces (based on the fact that the card states he was part of the cadre at the Army's JWTC and the JWTC was run by Special Forces, however per Oliver Special Forces didn't take the JWTC over until 70-71 and we've got pretty good evidence that Wreckage was there before 68, maybe he was still there in 70-71 and the file card uses the pre-68 name for the JWTC because he started there pre-68?) Anybody have other thoughts on this? So assuming Wreckage was Special Forces would be reasonable, and there were certainly plenty of E-4 SF personnel operating in Vietnam due to high attrition, but he certainly wouldn't have instructed as an E-4 at JWTC so that's the only glaring error. My philosopy when adding to and revising the file cards is to use as much as the original content as possible unless there are errors that just can't be rationalized, such as the statement that Leatherneck "was the roughest tech sergeant of the 1st Recon Bn* in Viet Nam." Well, that's impossible because the rank of Tech Sgt in the Marines hadn't existed since 1958. No way to justify that one. |
08-13-2012, 02:03 PM | #17897 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
I don't think he's old at all. I think the JWTC is just a sloppy filecard reference. Muskrat has it too. No one but maybe the first 5 series of Joes maybe Vietnam vets. The one is Panama closed in 1999. As an E-4 he would barely have time to go through Q-courses. Don't get me wrong I like him as a Green Beret.
What Hama email are you referring to? Do you base their relative age on the years the figures were released or is there some other source that gives that info? I can't argue against your point of some sloppy writing in the file cards, but without some other piece of canon to go by, I'm tempted to stick with my original assumption. |
08-13-2012, 02:15 PM | #17898 |
Cobra Viper
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Quote:
Just to clarify. Although the 8th SFG took operational control of the school in 1970, Special Forces instructors were teaching there under the supervision of the 8th as early as 1965 because the School of Americas, which took over in '63, lacked sufficient cadre.
So assuming Wreckage was Special Forces would be reasonable, and there were certainly plenty of E-4 SF personnel operating in Vietnam due to high attrition, but he certainly wouldn't have instructed as an E-4 at JWTC so that's the only glaring error. My philosopy when adding to and revising the file cards is to use as much as the original content as possible unless there are errors that just can't be rationalized, such as the statement that Leatherneck "was the roughest tech sergeant of the 1st Recon Bn* in Viet Nam." Well, that's impossible because the rank of Tech Sgt in the Marines hadn't existed since 1958. No way to justify that one. |
08-13-2012, 05:13 PM | #17899 |
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I always tend to follow the year they were released. Wreckage being released a full 20 years after Snake Eyes and Stalker. Had they made Sabertooth back in the day, (87-88?) then I would totally go for the Vietnam angle. I just don't see Vietnam in the cards but for the few joes mentioned in the filecards and possibly Gung-Ho and Torpedo.
I remember the response for Oliver from Hama. I would agree he would most likely have gone to Airborne and Ranger School. Airborne school is like 3 weeks so almost anyone can squeeze that in. Ranger school is like 8 weeks and highly selective which would be harder to get into. but not too out of the realm of possibilities. Special forces school is 18 months. Were he a vietnam vet then like Tanksmasher says, attrition was high so an E-4 could be a green beret. But I sort of try to keep them modern. Which goes back to my original question, "Where does the army currently get their Jungle Warfare training these days?"
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08-13-2012, 05:28 PM | #17900 |
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I always tend to follow the year they were released. Wreckage being released a full 20 years after Snake Eyes and Stalker. Had they made Sabertooth back in the day, (87-88?) then I would totally go for the Vietnam angle. I just don't see Vietnam in the cards but for the few joes mentioned in the filecards and possibly Gung-Ho and Torpedo.
Technically I have two Joe-verses. One is set in the 80s and based on the concept that the Joe unit was developed around the same time as Delta Force, and many of the Joes served in Vietnam. But I also have a modernized Joe-verse, which is based on the most up-to-date military organizations, weapons, gear, etc. The first Joeverse was designed for my personal fictionalization of the ARAH Marvel world that Hama created. The second exists to complement the RPG game I'm working on, which is a very modern Joe unit. Quote:
Today Joint Forces and Marines are trained at JWTC at Camp Gonsalves, Okinawa. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 08-13-2012 at 05:31 PM.. |
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