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09-08-2011, 07:09 PM | #16681 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Quote:
As for DC, I don't have any in the scaled down structure but will have a few in the large (MEF size) structure though mostly guys like Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva etc. I'm determined to eliminate or minimize the Sci fi / fantastical from my joeverse with the exception of BATs. Last edited by Tyroc; 09-09-2011 at 01:50 AM.. |
09-09-2011, 06:09 AM | #16682 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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btw Tyroc I just got my AB-115 Shark/Tiburon yesterday.
It's huge! I wish I could send you one.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
09-09-2011, 06:41 AM | #16683 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Thanks, I'm pretty hopeful we'll see them here soon. If not there's always eBay.
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09-09-2011, 07:52 AM | #16684 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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I'm also hopeful they'll make it over here, if not, ebay shipping is going to be pretty painful on something that size I imagine.
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09-09-2011, 09:44 AM | #16685 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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09-10-2011, 12:53 AM | #16686 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
I must say that this site hasn't had much to offer recently so I haven't been around for a while but it's good to hear you guys are still discussing old topics and exploring new material.
I think both Oliver and Blackrazor make some valid points about the SEALs. Personally I think it's difficult to measure a unit's superiority, especially when they have different mission objectives requiring different skill sets. But I will ask this: Why does the military consider ST6 and Delta or CAG (or whatever they call them now) to be Tier 1 units if they aren't equally valuable? It would seem that ST6 is a more valuable asset than a normal SEAL team because of their additional training in CQC and hostage rescue and because they select the best SEALs from the other SEAL teams, so although they may not be better at typical SCUBA operations or UDT than SEAL Team 1, as Oliver put it, they are better at doing what ST6 was designed for. Perhaps they don't do a Long Walk to weed out applicants, but who's to say they don't have a Long Swim or equivalent physical selection process. All we can do is speculate since they don't publish the selection process. It would be interesting to see how well members from various units would fare in each other's training/weed out programs, but I can see where Blackrazor is coming from in saying that finishing a long ruck march shouldn't or isn't necessarily the final line that separates the men from the boys. Plus, even though in most cases a unit that practices some task more than others is usually more proficient, there may be some tasks, even hard task like long rucks, at which extra training doesn't necessarily make you more proficient. I, for example, constantly encounter pilots with far more flight hours and experience than myself, but they have years of bad habits or can't land worth a crap. In other words, higher quantity (of flying time, experience or training) doesn't always mean higher quality or greater proficiency. Although I haven't experienced any of the training firsthand, I've read a good bit about BUD/S, Ranger School, PJ and SF training, and Haney's book on Delta, and am friends with some former Rangers, LRSU guys and a sniper--but in the end I'm always thoroughly astounded by BUD/S and what the SEALs endure. It gives you the chills to read some of the training stories, and these are stories coming from guys I don't consider braggarts. Many guys from non-Navy branches have spoken very highly of the SEALs and even my brother who thought about volunteering when he was in the Navy said no way when he witnessed the training they had to go through. But then again, you always get a few swollen heads in any unit who are proud of their unit and personal accomplishments and they get a little overconfident or cocky. All I'm saying is that although ST6 and Delta may not be equal in terms expertise of specific skill sets, they definitely deserve equal respect regarding professionalism, experience and downright badassery. Bottom line: 1. I am NOT saying the SEALs/ST6 Suck. 2. I AM saying the SEALs are overhyped, but they are probably very good at what they were designed to do: maritme special ops. 3. ST6 & Delta are just different. They are more different than we are allowing for in this discussion. They both do CQC, but Delta does a LOT more than that. Delta is a lot bigger and just has a lot more types of missions. I'm sure ST6 does Maritime CQC very well... but that doesn't mean they are exactly like Delta, except wearing Navy uniforms. 4. The British SBS is not the same as ST6, and it's not even close to the relationship between Delta and SAS. The fact that SBS comes out of the Royal Marines does make a big difference. 5. Ruck Marches are FAR more difficult than you or Blackrazor thinks. I don't know how much experience either of you has, but moving long distances over difficult terrain with a lot of equipment in a certain ammount of time in the dark, bad weather, forward of enemy lines, with little or no support is HARD... it's as hard as anything anyone does in the military and it's a real skill. My brother flew for the USAF and I know that's hard and takes a lot of focus. I'va a little experience diving, and so I have a small understanding of what it might be like to swim in the dark for long distances, and how difficult that would be in an ocean with a current and other dangers... I get all that. Y'all are oversimplifying what a Ruck Marck is, and what it takes. This is why people who have never served with the Infantry think Infantrymen are dumb... try it out and see how brainless and easy this stuff is. Lots of really smart guys can't cut it.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-10-2011, 02:30 AM | #16687 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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1st I agree the SEALs probably overhyped, but I don't pay much attention to that. In a few years Delta may get all the hype. I think I mentioned Adm McRaven, But then there is also Adm McMullen, Adm Starvidis
I've never been in the military, and Oliver having served you have every right to defend your branch as you have earned it. I suppose Sgt. Humpty probably has a thing or two to say about ruck marches as well. But I see it like this, and I suppose this is just how I imagine public perception tries to quantify the difference between the two. Combat Diving is an additional skill, whereas ruck marches are more or less a basic Infantry skill. How much either Delta or ST6 does ruck marches is probably close to none. They get dropped in. Or they get the Rangers to do that for them. Now if you add the fact that SAS guys probably do more Ruck marching, maybe that makes them the toughest, although I bet Green Berets probably do it even better than just about anyone. Take that same Green Beret and put him in through Combat Diving courses, HALO/HAHO, and then have him Join Delta.... ...Well now you just have Snake-Eyes!
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 09-10-2011 at 02:47 AM.. |
09-10-2011, 07:22 AM | #16688 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
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Now if you add the fact that SAS guys probably do more Ruck marching, maybe that makes them the toughest, although I bet Green Berets probably do it even better than just about anyone. Take that same Green Beret and put him in through Combat Diving courses, HALO/HAHO, and then have him Join Delta....
...Well now you just have Snake-Eyes! |
09-10-2011, 09:16 AM | #16689 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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1st I agree the SEALs probably overhyped, but I don't pay much attention to that. In a few years Delta may get all the hype. I think I mentioned Adm McRaven, But then there is also Adm McMullen, Adm Starvidis
I've never been in the military, and Oliver having served you have every right to defend your branch as you have earned it. I suppose Sgt. Humpty probably has a thing or two to say about ruck marches as well. But I see it like this, and I suppose this is just how I imagine public perception tries to quantify the difference between the two. Combat Diving is an additional skill, whereas ruck marches are more or less a basic Infantry skill. How much either Delta or ST6 does ruck marches is probably close to none. They get dropped in. Or they get the Rangers to do that for them. Now if you add the fact that SAS guys probably do more Ruck marching, maybe that makes them the toughest, although I bet Green Berets probably do it even better than just about anyone. Take that same Green Beret and put him in through Combat Diving courses, HALO/HAHO, and then have him Join Delta.... ...Well now you just have Snake-Eyes! Delta's Long Walk IS one big ruck march - I'd say those guys are all pretty good at it, especially since something like 60% of them are coming from SF. I feel like everyone thinks I'm saying "Navy SEALs Suck." I'm NOT saying that. They're very tough, and they're very good at what they do... my only point is that their role is as specific as every other Special Operations Unit, and when the y try to do something outside their wheelhouse (like with the airfields in Panama), well, they're like fish out of water. This would be the same for any Special Operations Units. Delta couldn't perform Company or Battalion sized Infantry tasks as well as the Rangers. I see all of SF like surgical instruments designed for specific purposes. The right tool for the right job. I just see the Navy SEALs as constantly saying, "We're the best and we can do anything better than anyone else." Combat diving/swimming is a real skill. SEALs are good at it; it's their bread & Butter. Delta and SF have combat divers... Army Special Forces has a whole 5 week Combat diver course in Florida that supposed to be REALLY tough. SEALs are also trained in LandNav.. certainly there is overlap. Both units are probably proficient in both areas. Heck, I bet there are some SEALs who are good at LandNav, and some Delta/SF guys who are really good divers... but in general, it's a matter of expertise. And a tactical ruck march can be just as difficult as a tactical dive. I don't know enough about the SBS or the SAS to really compare them. I have a VERY good impression of these units, and I'm very impressed with the Paras and Royal Marines to begin with. Dalton Fury seemed very impressed with the SBS in his book, and he was much less impressed with the SEALs. I do think there's something to be said for the notion that the SBS is selecting from the very best of the Royal Marines to begin with... the RM's are TOUGH. On average, they're way tougher than our average Marines. A Royal Marine is much more comparable to an Airborne Ranger or a Recon Marine... they're supposed to be equal to the Paras. They're very elite... and only the very best of them go on to the SBS. That's saying something.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 09-10-2011 at 09:19 AM.. |
09-10-2011, 09:20 AM | #16690 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
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I still wish we could get the V-22 Osprey, but this thing is pretty great.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
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