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09-07-2011, 12:23 PM | #16661 |
Snarkybits
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dade City, Florida
Posts: 1,095
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Maybe he pulls them out, straightens them up, and then throws them like...woah.
Also, I finished this thread yesterday afternoon. Now I'm not sure what to do. :( |
09-07-2011, 12:52 PM | #16662 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
On the other hand, you've accomplished what very few others around here have. Well done, sir. As for what to do now... just start posting. Respond to points you find interesting. Let us know what you think. We could use some new blood around here. Welcome aboard. Glad to have you.
__________________
Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-07-2011, 01:03 PM | #16663 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Wow now that's dedication!
Well as you may have seen we sometimes steer conversations to our Joe-Verses, which many of us spend countless hours revising. But I've always gained insight from everyone elses, and incorporated what I liked. Added characters I have forgotten, and promoted others to new heights. So whenever you're willing to share feel free.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
09-07-2011, 02:23 PM | #16664 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Posts: 4,404
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Quote:
BUDS and SQT are the "weed out" process for Navy SEALs. It's not about being better or worse. It's about doctrine. Navy SEAL doctrine is to work in pairs. It's part of being a combat swimmer organization. If you have an equipment malfunction underwater, you can't buddy breath by yourself. Navy SEALs don't have a reputation for being quitters.
It stands to reason, that if ST6 is really equal to Delta, then their selection and training should be comprable. Since you seem to think there's some analogy to SBS/SAS and ST6/Delta, SBS and SAS both go through a very similar Selection Course... Something Delta copied, but ST6 evidently doesn't. Regular SEAL Teams are supposed to be on par with Army SF... SF has the Q course as it's "weed out" and selection process. Delta and ST6 are supposed to be Tier 1 units... so Delta doesn't just say, "Hey, soldier, you did great at the Q-course and in the Groups. Welcome aboard. We start training Monday for Delta." They still have to go through the "Long Walk" to even start Training. ST6, from what you've said, doesn't have a comparable process. Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
I said the SBS was better than the SAS, not more famous. They do all of the same missions as the SAS, plus the added swimmer canoeist missions. SBS has basically the same mission profile as ST6. It doesn't matter that they are Royal Marines. They do the same job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
That's like saying that any unit with the same mission is equal to any other unit with the same mission. The SBS doesn't go through BUD/S, and there's very little to indicate that the SBS trains with ST6 the same way Delta trains with the SBS. Besides that, where are you getting this argument that the SBS is better? Says who? They may have an expanded mission profile, but that doesn't mean they're actually doing the job better. If it's an aquatic/amphibious mission, the SBS is better suited for it. If it's a strickly overland mission, the SAS is probably better. If the SBS were just "Better", then in this time of military cutbacks, why wouldn't the Ministry of Defense simply say, "We're just going to shut down the SAS, because the SBS does everything better... so we're just going to expand the SBS." Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
You don't think Navy SEALs do long distance land patrols? It's not their bread and butter, but it's in their bag of tricks. It's something they train to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
Sure, it's in their wheelhouse... but I don't know a a unit that carries guns downrange that don't consider long distance patroling in their "bag of tricks". The Army leg Infantry is pretty good at long distance patroling. So are the Marines, and the Airborne... the Rangers are REALLY good at it. Heck, I bet if you and I got some rifles, some boots, and some camo, and reviewed the FM 7-8, we could probably train up and do a long distance patrol in a few monthes... but that doesn't mean we're going to be really good at it. Just because we know how to do it and practice it a time or two, doesn't mean we're on par with guys who do it for a living. Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
What is it you think the Navy SEALs are so deficient at doing? They rarely work in large groups like the Rangers. They don't turn civilians into armies like SF. That's not their mission. As far as, first combat training. Does it really matter to the end product? There are plenty of PFCs in RASP and the Q course that took boot camp, AIT, jump school route with no stops in between. Marine Recon platoons are the same way with guys going the boot camp, SOI straight to BRC. MARSOC may be a little different. I believe there is a time in service requirement before you can take the assessment. Even the Royal Marine Commandoes take civilians of the street. They are quite SF or SEALs, but they are an elite military unit that does special operations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverbox
I think they're over rated in nearly every mission parameter. With the possible exception of underwater demolitions and long distance swimming, there is a superior force for every other mission we need a Special Forces unit for. When the Marines stood up MARSOC, they didn't emulate the SEALs, even though it would have made a lot of sense to copy their sister service's training/doctrine for special ops. Rather, MARSOC copied Army SF - their course includes an almost exact copy of "Robin Sage". And the Marines pride themselves on being amphibious... if the SEALs are so great - because they claim to be so good in any environment, but especially amphibious operations - then why didn't the Marines pattern MARSOC after the SEAL Teams? But here's a question: Why are you so determined to defend the SEALs and ST6? What's at stake in this argument for you? I have nothing at stake in this discussion other than I was bit offended at the fraternity rush comment. This isn't the first time you've dismissed the SEALs as a combat unit. No one has badmouthed Delta, SF or the Rangers in this thread. No one else has badmouthed any special ops unit in this thread. You may ask yourself that same question in regard to SF. There is no intended malice. Your next comment will be the end of this discussion.
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Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html Last edited by blackrazor1; 09-07-2011 at 02:30 PM.. |
09-07-2011, 02:26 PM | #16665 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Posts: 4,404
|
That's some dedication. I'm set for max posts per page and that's still almost 850 pages.
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Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
09-07-2011, 02:28 PM | #16666 |
Snarkybits
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dade City, Florida
Posts: 1,095
|
Thanks. My 'Joe-verse' isn't even much of it's own -verse. It has been intermingled with a lot of fantasty(Marvel, DC, Image, Ninja Turtles, Transformers, etc. in a toy-comic I've been doing since 2008) and has been more of a side thing. Now it's the biggest thing.
Yeah, I read about 450 pages in that last week. Staying up late, neglecting my other message boards. |
09-07-2011, 06:15 PM | #16667 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Alright, since you're giving me the last word, I've got a number of points to make about your last post.
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ST6 trains with other maritime CT units just like Delta trains with the SAS and GSG-9. SBS trains to the same standard as the SAS with an expanded mission profile. At a minimum, they are a more capable unit than the SAS. That last comment is like asking why the 82nd and 10th Mountain still exists when the 75th Ranger Regiment is the best light infantry in the world.
My argument is simply that just because a unit is supposed to be able to do a certain list of mission skills, it doesn't mean that they are going to be experts at every one of them. In fact, the more mission sets they have to be proficient at, it stands to reason that their expertise diminishes. If the SBS and ST6 have to be able to do everything on land, airborne, underwater, and over the beach, how much are they really able to practice all those skills? Seriously, they don't have any more hours in the day than their counter parts at SAS or Delta. They can't be the very best at everything because they've got SO much on their plates. Can the SEALs perform long ruck marches over miles of inland terrain? Certainly. Will they be as good at it as the Green Berets who do it all the time? Probably not. Because the SEALs have also got to practice the other stuff they do, mainly water ops. Obviously we don't have enough Rangers to cover all the Infantry missions we need. So other units do those, and do them pretty well. But who is the best at Infantry Missions? The Rangers. Quote:
You're making a very faulty argument comparing me to a Navy SEAL. You made the comment about long distance ruck marches being a big deal. I don't how the Green Berets become experts at it compared to any other ground combat unit. But, once again that was your argument.
Quote:
Every SOCOM and JSOC unit has a specialty as a group that they are better at than anyone else. I never said the SEALs were the best at everything. MARSOC copied the Robin Sage exercise; because, it trains for a specific capability that the Marines wanted to develop. That's the ability to train third world civilians into a fighting force. The SEALs don't have that capability; because, it's hard to train third world individuals as combat swimmers. It's easier to find AKs than SCUBA gear in underdeveloped countries.
SEALs don't do a lot of language training like SF does, but neither do the Rangers or MarSoc. SEALs are good as swimming, and underwater explosives, and doing stuff on ships. Quote:
I have nothing at stake in this discussion other than I was bit offended at the fraternity rush comment. This isn't the first time you've dismissed the SEALs as a combat unit. No one has badmouthed Delta, SF or the Rangers in this thread. No one else has badmouthed any special ops unit in this thread.
You may ask yourself that same question in regard to SF. There is no intended malice. Your next comment will be the end of this discussion. First, we might ask: "What is the Hype about Navy SEALs"? Answer: 1.) They consistanty claim to have the toughest military training in the World, not just the U.S., but the entire world. 2.) They claim to be THE Best, MOST Elite Special Operations unit in the World. 3.) They claim to be absolute experts in ANY/ALL environments: Sea, Land, or Air. 4.) They basically claim to the best, and there's a lot of arrogance/bravado. ...That's a LOT of hype. And as we have all discussed at length, Special Operations Units are specialty units... that's why we have so many of them. The Green Berets have Scuba Teams that can do very similar missions to what the SEALs do, but are they AS good as the SEALs at open water swimming? Probably not. The USAF PJ's have snipers, but are they as good as MarSoc's snipers? Probably not. Army SF can do CQB/HRT mission, and do them pretty well, but are they as good as Delta? Probably not. It would seem more fitting for the SEALs to say, "Look, we're good at amphibious, small unit operations like recon and direct action within 20 miles of water. That's our specialty, that's our track record, that's our thing. Team 6 is a great CT unit for maritime operations, but Delta covers inland ops. They're bigger and that's what they train for." But SEALs don't say that. They say, "We're the toughest, and the Best. Period." It's annoying, and it's just not true. Now, to the question of whethor or not I'm biased... well, I'm not in SF, nor an I Ranger qualified. It's true I don't like the Navy, but that's not just because I'm in the Army. And I've been equally gracious in my praise of the Marine Special Ops. And while I haven't mentioned the USAF PJ's or CC's, I think those guys are great. What I think ALL those units have in common is that they're truely quiet professionals. They do what they're good at, and they give credit where credit is due. They don't go around telling everyone "We have THE hardest training, and WE are THE Best unit in the world! We are the BEST at ANY mission, in ANY environment!" That's just ridiculous. The Rangers look up to Delta and SF, SF looks up to Delta and would tell you that the Regiment is the finest Light Infantry force in the world. It's a mutual admiration society based on professionalism, respect and expertise. With the SEALs, it's all about the SEALs and how they're better than everyone else. So are the SEALs a tough unit? Sure. Are they very good at their area of expertise? Absolutely. Do they deserve to be considered the equals of Army SF? Yes, in their specific area. Are they all they claim to be? Not a snowballs chance in Hell. Nobody could be that good (except G.I. Joe ;) ), and it's just insulting to everyone else. And when I look at their track record since Vietnam... the Killing of Osama Bin Laden maybe the first successful REAL misison the SEALs have had in a very long time... and they still screwed up blowing the helicopter. I'm not badmouthing them; I'm calling for a more realistc apraisal. That's all. So, Blackrazor says he's done with this topic. Would anyone else like to discuss the merits/value of the Navy SEALs? I'm only looking for an honest conversation.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 09-07-2011 at 07:12 PM.. |
09-08-2011, 12:07 AM | #16668 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Not add Fuel to the fire, and let me preface this by saying I'm totally Marine Corps Biased, but the Navy Seals reputation cannot be totally unwarranted. It's not all Hype. Sure there is some hype around SEAL team 6, but like Delta Force there existance was kept secret for a long time. Who's better? I don't know, and no one has claimed they are better. I've never met a SEAL or a Delta Force guy, so I can't get their opinion.
But either way we will never know every mission they've been on. We only know of the one's we do know. And recently they seem to involve ST6. I think when it comes down it, it's more of a political choice than anything else. The US has several forces that can take on Hostage rescue missions, which essentially is what the bin Laden mission was. The only thing going for the SEALs right now is this guy: William H. McRaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia USSOCOM commander Adm. McRaven (Which just sounds Badass) was a former Navy SEAL commander. Guess who he probably picks to go deep on every play? How the SAS vs SBS conversation got started, I don't remember but it's just the same argument just on the other side of the pond. Still I think the US needs multiple types of these units as do other world powers. Which is better is almost impossible to quantify. Still I can imagine ST6 and Delta are equals to each other, and better than most, only for the fact their members are more seasoned than most other Spec Op forces. Which team allows the Fattest members is a ridiculous topic. None of these guys are fat. And even if they could somehow put on extra weight, they would probably lose it the minute they get deployed. Thats why they invented this stupid looking thing: TRX Suspension Training
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
09-08-2011, 12:11 AM | #16669 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
09-08-2011, 03:53 AM | #16670 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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Hey guys, apologies for the long absense - moved house back in mid-June then have been shockingly busy at work, and just last week my wife gave birth to a lovely baby girl, so am now able to chill out between nappy changes and the like ;)
Quote:
Quote:
Not add Fuel to the fire, and let me preface this by saying I'm totally Marine Corps Biased, but the Navy Seals reputation cannot be totally unwarranted. It's not all Hype. Sure there is some hype around SEAL team 6, but like Delta Force there existance was kept secret for a long time. Who's better? I don't know, and no one has claimed they are better. I've never met a SEAL or a Delta Force guy, so I can't get their opinion.
Quote:
But either way we will never know every mission they've been on. We only know of the one's we do know. And recently they seem to involve ST6. I think when it comes down it, it's more of a political choice than anything else. The US has several forces that can take on Hostage rescue missions, which essentially is what the bin Laden mission was. The only thing going for the SEALs right now is this guy:
William H. McRaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia USSOCOM commander Adm. McRaven (Which just sounds Badass) was a former Navy SEAL commander. Guess who he probably picks to go deep on every play? |
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