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09-01-2011, 04:41 PM | #16641 |
I.O. SpecOps
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I think the big difference is that ST6 gets their new members from a specific pool of applicants from a fairly small community. They've all been to BUDS and SQT. Delta invites guys from different backgrounds and supposedly different services( supposedly they've had a few USAF guys at times). ST6 doesn't have the same need to have new members start from the same baseline; because, they already do. Delta has Rangers, Airborne, SF, Military Intel, and a bunch of other specialties that members can come from. That requires Delta to have some unifying experience to bring new members into the group.
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09-01-2011, 06:57 PM | #16642 |
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Quote:
I think the big difference is that ST6 gets their new members from a specific pool of applicants from a fairly small community. They've all been to BUDS and SQT. Delta invites guys from different backgrounds and supposedly different services( supposedly they've had a few USAF guys at times). ST6 doesn't have the same need to have new members start from the same baseline; because, they already do. Delta has Rangers, Airborne, SF, Military Intel, and a bunch of other specialties that members can come from. That requires Delta to have some unifying experience to bring new members into the group.
Based on what you've said (and this is just my impression), it seems that SEAL Team 6 is really closer to being "Just Another" SEAL Team that maybe corners the market on CQB, and other Counter-Terrorist specialties... I mean, would they be any more proficient at Diving or underwater demolitions or Jungle Recon than SEAL/SDV Team 1? Obviously I'm oversimplifying... but it's basically like the "ALL-Star Squad" of Navy SEALs. Delta is supposed to be something different, not just "ALL-Star" Green Berets.
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09-02-2011, 02:05 AM | #16643 |
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It seems to me that there's a lot more info out there on the SEALs and their missions, but not as much about Delta and SF. From what I understand, SEAL training emphasizes teamwork and physical strength, while SF is more about teamwork and intellectual ability. Think about Wet Suit's filecard-"SEALs are the guys who were too nasty to become Airborne Rangers or Marines". Certainly, the SEALs have the somewhat unique ability to perform missions in or around water, which was certainly a great asset in Vietnam. Like Oliver, I don't want to put them down, just clarify the different roles of these units.
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09-02-2011, 10:52 AM | #16644 |
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Quote:
It seems to me that there's a lot more info out there on the SEALs and their missions, but not as much about Delta and SF. From what I understand, SEAL training emphasizes teamwork and physical strength, while SF is more about teamwork and intellectual ability. Think about Wet Suit's filecard-"SEALs are the guys who were too nasty to become Airborne Rangers or Marines". Certainly, the SEALs have the somewhat unique ability to perform missions in or around water, which was certainly a great asset in Vietnam. Like Oliver, I don't want to put them down, just clarify the different roles of these units.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-02-2011, 11:39 AM | #16645 |
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I'm not so sure how mandatory that weight training is. I've seen some pics of SF soldiers getting awarded medals. Some of them look like they'd be separated from the USMC strictly on the height/weight requirement. I've seen pics of overweight looking SF. I've never seen pics of overweight SEALs, PJs, CCTs, Recon Marines, or Rangers.
Land Nav is important, but is that really the most important factor to being a CT operator? ST6 specializes in hostage rescue. The regular SEAL Teams don't. There's a big difference between simply clearing a room of bad guys and taking that shot were the bad guy is using a hostage as a shield. Even in the UK, the SBS is considered better than the SAS; because of, the combat swimming requirement. It's a lot easier to HALO, drive or march to an objective than it is to do a long distance swim. Particularly, if you still have to climb up the side of a ship or oil rig. For the most part, I think Delta and ST6 are fairly even. Just Delta has been doing it longer. I believe Delta has their own small helicopter wing that is of the unit. ST6 appears to have its own SWCC element in the unit.
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09-02-2011, 10:00 PM | #16646 |
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SF operators are just big, not fat... puny Marines and SEALs need to man up ;) Weight training is certainly mandatory in the Groups. I've worked with a few of those really big guys... they always passed their body index test, and they could PT like mad dogs. Yeah, they could still run like the wind. A few guys of the older NCO's would get too big on deployments, so they would rotate them to a support unit to let them rest and drop weight. But deployments for SF is very different than for SEALs or Delta. SEALs and Delta have compounds in the rear and deploy for specific missions. SF stays out in the field in FOB's... it's harder to stay in good shape out there, but they do often have weight rooms in the FOBs.
Land Nav is not a training method for CT; it's a "weed out" to see who can operate alone under adverse conditions. And the SAS/SBS has used this process for years. It's effective. It singles out individuals who will not quit, even when completely isolated. SF does it, and Delta does it because their missions are not just CT/SWAT operations. I don't think the SBS is better regarded than the SAS. If anything, the SAS is far more famous. Besides that, the SBS isn't usually coming out of the Royal Navy; they're coming out of the Royal Marines. If anything, they would be more like a Tier One MARSOC unit, which we don't currently have, rather than analogous to ST6. But the SAS is coming out of the Paras, for the most part, and those guys are no less tough than the RM''s. Nobody, SBS or any SEALs, is going to perform a swimming insert from more than about 6 Knots from shore... unless they're using boats or subs. Delta/SAS will move overland to objectives up to 30 or 40 Klicks away with up to 100 lbs. of gear. I don't think Delta/SAS has any less difficult of a task there. Is ST6 equal to Delta? I don't know. I've never worked with either. I've met just a very few Delta Operators, but I've never met someone from ST6. Overall, however, I'm just not as impressed with the ST6 model of selection and training. I don't even think the regular SEAL training is as good as other Special Operations training in the Army or Marines. To that point, I recently read an article where the Commandant of the USMC was asked why Marines weren't allowed to attend BUD/S, after all, the USCG was getting a few slots, and the USMC is a part of the Dept. of the Navy. The General said, "The attrition rate at BUD/S is pretty high for those sailors, and the Navy is pretty proud of that. It adds to the mystique of the SEALs, I suppose. I don't think they want a Bunch of Marines getting in there and ruining their statistics." There's something to be said for the General's point of view. BUD/S is very often the first Combat training that those SEALs get. By the time Marine and Army troops get to Special Ops training, they are already very proficient combatants.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 09-03-2011 at 09:19 AM.. |
09-03-2011, 12:31 PM | #16647 |
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Quote:
SF operators are just big, not fat... puny Marines and SEALs need to man up ;) Weight training is certainly mandatory in the Groups. I've worked with a few of those really big guys... they always passed their body index test, and they could PT like mad dogs. Yeah, they could still run like the wind. A few guys of the older NCO's would get too big on deployments, so they would rotate them to a support unit to let them rest and drop weight. But deployments for SF is very different than for SEALs or Delta. SEALs and Delta have compounds in the rear and deploy for specific missions. SF stays out in the field in FOB's... it's harder to stay in good shape out there, but they do often have weight rooms in the FOBs.
Land Nav is not a training method for CT; it's a "weed out" to see who can operate alone under adverse conditions. And the SAS/SBS has used this process for years. It's effective. It singles out individuals who will not quit, even when completely isolated. SF does it, and Delta does it because their missions are not just CT/SWAT operations. BUDS and SQT are the "weed out" process for Navy SEALs. It's not about being better or worse. It's about doctrine. Navy SEAL doctrine is to work in pairs. It's part of being a combat swimmer organization. If you have an equipment malfunction underwater, you can't buddy breath by yourself. Navy SEALs don't have a reputation for being quitters. I don't think the SBS is better regarded than the SAS. If anything, the SAS is far more famous. Besides that, the SBS isn't usually coming out of the Royal Navy; they're coming out of the Royal Marines. If anything, they would be more like a Tier One MARSOC unit, which we don't currently have, rather than analogous to ST6. But the SAS is coming out of the Paras, for the most part, and those guys are no less tough than the RM''s. Nobody, SBS or any SEALs, is going to perform a swimming insert from more than about 6 Knots from shore... unless they're using boats or subs. Delta/SAS will move overland to objectives up to 30 or 40 Klicks away with up to 100 lbs. of gear. I don't think Delta/SAS has any less difficult of a task there. I said the SBS was better than the SAS, not more famous. They do all of the same missions as the SAS, plus the added swimmer canoeist missions. SBS has basically the same mission profile as ST6. It doesn't matter that they are Royal Marines. They do the same job. You don't think Navy SEALs do long distance land patrols? It's not their bread and butter, but it's in their bag of tricks. It's something they train to do. Is ST6 equal to Delta? I don't know. I've never worked with either. I've met just a very few Delta Operators, but I've never met someone from ST6. Overall, however, I'm just not as impressed with the ST6 model of selection and training. I don't even think the regular SEAL training is as good as other Special Operations training in the Army or Marines. To that point, I recently read an article where the Commandant of the USMC was asked why Marines weren't allowed to attend BUD/S, after all, the USCG was getting a few slots, and the USMC is a part of the Dept. of the Navy. The General said, "The attrition rate at BUD/S is pretty high for those sailors, and the Navy is pretty proud of that. It adds to the mystique of the SEALs, I suppose. I don't think they want a Bunch of Marines getting in there and ruining their statistics." There's something to be said for the General's point of view. BUD/S is very often the first Combat training that those SEALs get. By the time Marine and Army troops get to Special Ops training, they are already very proficient combatants. It takes more than just completing BUDS to be a Navy SEAL. Many still washout in SQT.
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09-03-2011, 05:47 PM | #16648 |
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BUDS and SQT are the "weed out" process for Navy SEALs. It's not about being better or worse. It's about doctrine. Navy SEAL doctrine is to work in pairs. It's part of being a combat swimmer organization. If you have an equipment malfunction underwater, you can't buddy breath by yourself. Navy SEALs don't have a reputation for being quitters.
It stands to reason, that if ST6 is really equal to Delta, then their selection and training should be comprable. Since you seem to think there's some analogy to SBS/SAS and ST6/Delta, SBS and SAS both go through a very similar Selection Course... Something Delta copied, but ST6 evidently doesn't. Regular SEAL Teams are supposed to be on par with Army SF... SF has the Q course as it's "weed out" and selection process. Delta and ST6 are supposed to be Tier 1 units... so Delta doesn't just say, "Hey, soldier, you did great at the Q-course and in the Groups. Welcome aboard. We start training Monday for Delta." They still have to go through the "Long Walk" to even start Training. ST6, from what you've said, doesn't have a comparable process. I said the SBS was better than the SAS, not more famous. They do all of the same missions as the SAS, plus the added swimmer canoeist missions. SBS has basically the same mission profile as ST6. It doesn't matter that they are Royal Marines. They do the same job. That's like saying that any unit with the same mission is equal to any other unit with the same mission. The SBS doesn't go through BUD/S, and there's very little to indicate that the SBS trains with ST6 the same way Delta trains with the SBS. Besides that, where are you getting this argument that the SBS is better? Says who? They may have an expanded mission profile, but that doesn't mean they're actually doing the job better. If it's an aquatic/amphibious mission, the SBS is better suited for it. If it's a strickly overland mission, the SAS is probably better. If the SBS were just "Better", then in this time of military cutbacks, why wouldn't the Ministry of Defense simply say, "We're just going to shut down the SAS, because the SBS does everything better... so we're just going to expand the SBS." You don't think Navy SEALs do long distance land patrols? It's not their bread and butter, but it's in their bag of tricks. It's something they train to do. Sure, it's in their wheelhouse... but I don't know a a unit that carries guns downrange that don't consider long distance patroling in their "bag of tricks". The Army leg Infantry is pretty good at long distance patroling. So are the Marines, and the Airborne... the Rangers are REALLY good at it. Heck, I bet if you and I got some rifles, some boots, and some camo, and reviewed the FM 7-8, we could probably train up and do a long distance patrol in a few monthes... but that doesn't mean we're going to be really good at it. Just because we know how to do it and practice it a time or two, doesn't mean we're on par with guys who do it for a living. What is it you think the Navy SEALs are so deficient at doing? They rarely work in large groups like the Rangers. They don't turn civilians into armies like SF. That's not their mission. As far as, first combat training. Does it really matter to the end product? There are plenty of PFCs in RASP and the Q course that took boot camp, AIT, jump school route with no stops in between. Marine Recon platoons are the same way with guys going the boot camp, SOI straight to BRC. MARSOC may be a little different. I believe there is a time in service requirement before you can take the assessment. Even the Royal Marine Commandoes take civilians of the street. They are quite SF or SEALs, but they are an elite military unit that does special operations. I think they're over rated in nearly every mission parameter. With the possible exception of underwater demolitions and long distance swimming, there is a superior force for every other mission we need a Special Forces unit for. When the Marines stood up MARSOC, they didn't emulate the SEALs, even though it would have made a lot of sense to copy their sister service's training/doctrine for special ops. Rather, MARSOC copied Army SF - their course includes an almost exact copy of "Robin Sage". And the Marines pride themselves on being amphibious... if the SEALs are so great - because they claim to be so good in any environment, but especially amphibious operations - then why didn't the Marines pattern MARSOC after the SEAL Teams? But here's a question: Why are you so determined to defend the SEALs and ST6? What's at stake in this argument for you? It takes more than just completing BUDS to be a Navy SEAL. Many still washout in SQT. Not that many. If they make it through the Hell Week, the attrition rate drops dramatically. Something like 95% of the guys who graduate from BUD/s make it through SQT, according to Dick Couch's "The Finishing School". For the vast majority, if they make it through Hell Week, unless they get hurt, they'll become SEALs.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-04-2011, 07:46 AM | #16649 |
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Without getting into the Army vs. Navy debate, I meant to say that SF does emphasize physical abilty as well as teamwork and intellect. I didn't put that in my post, so I apologize for not being clear on that. As to the appearance of some SF operators, I've seen some pics that show them to be big/bulky, not necessarily "fat" though. In fact, I have a pic of one of the A-Teams that served in Afghanistan, and they look like guys I might see around town. That's not in any way a "dig", it just shows how good they are at blending in to their environment. Also, if you think about it, SF was originally intended to be a "stay behind" unit in case things got hot in Western Europe, so it sounds like a lot of their training is designed to encourage their abilities to act as individuals if necessary.
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09-04-2011, 09:06 AM | #16650 |
G.I.Juggernaut
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my favorite filecard is the szcitzo zartan card.also funny how back in that day people caught on enough to get upset and we didnt even have the internet then.,as for second favorite fc...
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