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08-28-2011, 10:18 PM | #16611 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Hey Rambo,
Gosh, that's a tough question. I served as a Chaplain in U.S. Army Special Operations Command, but I am not Ranger or Special Forces qualified... I've worked with those guys, but I was NOT a shooter. Chaplains are prohibited from TOUCHING a gun while on duty/in uniform. That being said, like many of the guys on this thread, I read a LOT of books on Special Operations... combined with what I've seen in real life, that's not nothing. So, I read a lot about the shooters, and I've known and worked with real shooters. In my opinion, The British SAS & SBS are probably the very top of the heap for their respective specialties. As a Land Based, CT/DA unit, the British SAS pretty much wrote the book on Special Operations. Certainly they are capable of any type of operation, but if it's an amphibious/aquatic operation, the SBS is REALLY tough to beat... and I'm quite sure that, though a bit smaller and less famous, the SBS is more than capable of performing CT/DA/Recon Ops just as well as their counterparts in the SAS. Dalton Fury, in his book "Kill Bin Laden", says that the SBS are every bit as good as SEAL Team 6, if not better. ...So for the top 2 spots on the list, I would place the SAS/SBS. Deciding between those 2 units would depend on the parameters of the mission. As for strict Counter-Terrorist/SWAT/HRT/Urban Operations, the German GSG-9 has one of the best reputations in the world. Because they are technically a police unit, rather than a military unit, I'm unclear as to how good the GSG-9 would be in the woods, or the desert, or the jungle in comparison to other units like SAS/Delta, but for HRT/SWAT ops, I don't know that there is anyone any better than the German GSG-9. Very, very efficient... the FBI's HRT would do well to operate more like GSG-9. So for Urban Operations - the GSG-9 would be really tough to beat. Again, it's all about mission parameters. Special Operations units are like precision tools - a surgeon's scalpel opposed to a KA-Bar knife - so it's really a question of what is the specific specialty of each unit. ... and that is one of my biggest problems with the hype of Navy SEALs. They talk a big game about "SEa, Air, Land". As if to say that they are trained to be experts in ANY environment on earth. This is simply ridiculous. Every Infantry soldier in the Army and Marine Corps is trained (in theory) to operate proficiently in any environment on earth. Take the 4th Infantry Division, for example, they're trained and expected to be able to deploy anywhere the U.S. needs them to go. Right now, that happens to be Iraq and Afghanistan... that could be North Korea at any time, or China, or Georgia/Chechnya, or ANYWHERE the U.S. needs them. SEALs are most effective in Ocean/River/Amphibious Operations close to the shore. That's what they're good at, but for a number of reasons, they are not nearly as good on the land as other U.S. Special Operations units. The Australians have some incredibly good Special Ops units... so does New Zealand and South Africa. Australia's SAS is not really quite the same as Britain's SAS; it's really closer to U.S. Army Special Forces. Australia's answer to the British SAS/U.S. Delta is their Tactical Assault Group (West), while their Tactical Assault Group (East) is somewhat more similar to the British SBS/U.S. SEAL Team 6. The Tactical Assault Groups are the premier units in Australia, and though newer units, will likely be able to stand up quite well by comparison to the British SAS/SBS and U.S. Delta/SEAL Team 6. One other unit I should mention is the U.S. Army Intelligence Support Activity, which is known by quite a few "code names" like Grey Fox, Centre Spike, The Secret Army of Northern Virginia, "The Activity", etc. These guys are amazing, but HIGHLY secretive. Very little is known about them, but perhaps that's the most telling thing about them. Here's a fact that really speaks to their quality... the Army's Delta Force was based on the British SAS, but the British SRR (Special Recon Regiment) was based on our ISA because it's so effective. These guys are basically the "Spooks" or Spies of Elite Special Operations Units. If you need covert Recon through electronic surveillance or HumInt, these guys are the best in the world. Additionally, the U.S. Marine Corps has only recently stood up it's own Special Operations Units: MARSOC/MSOB. Based on their very effective Force Recon Units, the Marine Special Operators are Amphibious versions of the Army's Green Berets. They are excellent, tough, and I think the future is very bright for MARSOC. As for U.S. Units, I think the 3 most effective units we have are Army Special Forces (Green Berets), whose work in Afghanistan has arguably been more effective than any other U.S. Unit in that war. The Ranger Regiment is, arguably, the finest light Infantry unit in the world. They are a combat force of nearly unparalleled quality... perhaps, only the British Para's are comparable. As a Special Operations Support Unit, the 160th SOAR are perhaps the finest helicopter pilots and aviation support in the world. Those guys are amazing. And though they are not technically shooters in the same sense as the operators they carry, their work is indispensable and they are certainly elite. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Sorry it's not more of a regular "list", I just think it's a really complicated question. I'll be interested to read what you and everyone else thinks. Edit: Writing this much about Special Operations in this thread brings back some good memories. I've got a smile on my face. Thanks, Rambo.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 08-28-2011 at 10:21 PM.. |
08-28-2011, 11:55 PM | #16612 |
Marinaded and grilled
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 155
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I always thought the O13 were hand selected for an initial specific task, and as there became more use for that team, the code name GI Joe stuck. AND that the following members joined the team by various methods, including selection, application, and temp-to-perm official placement (eg: see comics' Wild Bill).
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08-29-2011, 12:12 AM | #16613 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
I always thought the O13 were hand selected for an initial specific task, and as there became more use for that team, the code name GI Joe stuck. AND that the following members joined the team by various methods, including selection, application, and temp-to-perm official placement (eg: see comics' Wild Bill).
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
08-29-2011, 12:44 AM | #16614 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Well I picked the SEALs just out of the hat. I think for the guys who end up in more support roles, there must be some training required. Although I sort of like how IDW portrays Tripwire as an operator, then like Lightfoot in the Marvel Run who seemed more like Bomb Squad.
But the pilots won't need that type of training, nor would the HAZMAT types, or the HQ people like Psyche-Out.(Although I pretend my Psyche-Out was a former Green-Beret) I think really they would just need to do their regular training to stay cohesive as a unit, but I don't think there would be try outs for the Joes. I think they just pick you. I would also think that some of the Joe SEALs were SEAL team 6 guys. And most of the JOEs E-6 an above are seasoned Vets. Ranger school all around.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
08-29-2011, 04:17 AM | #16615 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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I'd like to think that all support guys would have to go through some kind of all arms commando course similar to what is required for service in the Royal Marine Commandos.
All Arms Commando Course - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Not only because these days the 'front line' is becoming blurry in low intensity conflict but also some of the support guys might be required for patrol duty like Brainstorm in a recent issue of the IDW comic. |
08-29-2011, 04:20 AM | #16616 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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I'm reading a book called "Seal Team Six" by Howard Wasdin. Only half way through but so far it's been a very interesting read and really shows the huge gulf between Seal Team 6 and regular Seal platoons. For example, in the chapter I just read it took Foxtrot Platoon, Seal Team 2 two hours to clear a foreign ship on a VBSS mission and Wasdin points out that it would've taken Team Six less than half an hour to do the same job.
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08-29-2011, 04:44 AM | #16617 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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I know this was asked of Oliver but I really don't think there can ever be a definitive answer. Like Oliver, I've never served with any of these units but know a few people in the Australian SASR and TAG (Tactical Assault Group) East and West and have been reading and researching extensively.
I think it all boils down to the type of mission, type of conflict and location. Like Oliver pointed out there are lots of CT groups which are very very good at what they do without being military (GSG-9, French GIGN and the FBI's HRT). Then there are groups like Brazil's BOPE which specialize in Urban CQB in VERY close confines within the favellas of Rio. I don't think anyone can say that X is better than Y because within their community they seem to have a very healthy respect each other. For example, Chris Ryan who was a SAS member, has done SAS, Delta and SF selection training. Even though, he already went through Tier 1 selection, he emphasized that the SF Q course was no joke and was as rigorous in its own way as Delta and SAS, it just demanded a different set of skills. In SF, you're expected to train and lead Indigenous groups whereas in what he was doing in the SAS the emphasis was more on CQB, DA. It just requires a different mindset. Interestingly, he did say that for best pure shooting skills, he mentioned Poland's BOA (a police unit) had the best shooters he had ever seen. |
08-29-2011, 10:10 AM | #16618 |
Marinaded and grilled
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 155
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Quote:
But the pilots won't need that type of training, nor would the HAZMAT types, or the HQ people like Psyche-Out.(Although I pretend my Psyche-Out was a former Green-Beret) I think really they would just need to do their regular training to stay cohesive as a unit, but I don't think there would be try outs for the Joes. I think they just pick you.
According to the cartoons, they also needed to beef up the PT and concurrent training for the Joes once the team grew, because they were getting soft from their daily routines and workouts. That's why they brought in SGT Slaughter. Pilots would need a whole new set of instruction tailored to fighting attack-VTOLs, swarms of mini-gunships (the FANG is very heavily armed for its size), and ginormous flying fortresses. While some of them probably already demonstrated extraordinary skill, they still need to be tested, and then keep their skills sharp by building upon them. Similarly, "HAZMAT"s are going to need even more training to do their job while under fire, because the ones firing at them are going to be Cobra troops and special weapons operators.
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Last edited by Rooster3D; 08-29-2011 at 10:13 AM.. |
08-29-2011, 01:25 PM | #16619 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I agree you would have to prove yourself and Try-out. What I really meant to say is the Joes would be so secretive you can't actively go to your Personnel office and say I want to try out for GIJoe. You don't choose JOE they choose you.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
08-30-2011, 01:54 AM | #16620 |
Snarkybits
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Dade City, Florida
Posts: 1,095
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I've been wanting to read this whole thread through(at almost two months in, I'm on page 353[I use 20 posts/page] of 831) before posting here, but man...It's been some fine reading. Thanks for this fount of knowledge. Can't wait to join in on the discussions.
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