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05-23-2011, 11:58 AM | #16311 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,586
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Quote:
If you're considering going up against the US in a war, and you know they are going to send big black planes that look like black bats to drop blombs on you, that's somehow more intimidating than the idea of a grey/green/brown moth like thing dropping bombs on you. |
05-23-2011, 12:05 PM | #16312 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Quote:
That camo reminds me a lot of the camo Israel uses on its fast jets. They don't seem to care about things looking cool, they're all efficiency. The B-2 was also supposed to be more effective with an all gray camo scheme but apparently the USAF went with black just because it looked more intimidating. I can see the reasoning - sure it all posturing, but posturing has a real function.
If you're considering going up against the US in a war, and you know they are going to send big black planes that look like black bats to drop blombs on you, that's somehow more intimidating than the idea of a grey/green/brown moth like thing dropping bombs on you. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 05-23-2011 at 12:07 PM.. |
05-23-2011, 01:24 PM | #16313 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Posts: 4,404
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Quote:
I can't imagine intimidation being the objective of painting them black. Stealth aircraft aren't intended to be "seen." The last thing you'd want is your enemy getting a visual on the aircraft that's about to bomb him so he can try to shoot it out of the air. A black paint scheme makes sense if an aircraft is going to fly night missions to help avoid visual detection, and the desert camo patterns are intended to help keep grounded aircraft hidden from prying eyes in the air.
The camo made more sense if they planned on flying nap-of-the-earth. Day or night that jet would be hard to see in the desert.
__________________
Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
05-23-2011, 02:13 PM | #16314 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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however, you would save on hotel costs and per diem, since the flight crew can just go home at the end of the day. There might be some small fuel savings due to a lighter aircraft, but that might be offset by the cost of additional equipment, such as X number of cameras to allow the remote pilots to view everything around the aircraft that they would normally see from the flight deck, and then multiply X number of cameras by two because the FAA is going to require backups in case one or more fails in flight. Plus, the ground equipment to fly the aircraft, and I doubt they'd use full-motion hydraulic simulators like we use for training because they can cost $600-800 an hour, so that brings me back to my earlier point about a loss of sensory information due to the remote pilot not being in the aircraft. There are just so many variables for which that technology may not have solutions.
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I'm certainly not saying a computer is a better pilot, but there are some advantages in certain aspects, as long as the downsides can be adequately contained. |
05-23-2011, 02:20 PM | #16315 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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True, but it's not going to be parked on a runway. I'm thinking of a special instance when they might want a particular jet (not the F-117, although there was one with desert camo, but not sure why) parked off the pavement, under some netting. And you're right, desert camo for NOE would work, but I can't think of any reason why they'd want to fly nap of the earth in an F-117, which has the ability to fly at altitudes beyond the range of many common defense systems and the ability to confuse radar. NOE is useful for helicopters and attack planes like the A-10, but precarious for the Stealth Fighter. Gray camo is useful for day operations, but that was not the ideal use for the F-117, especially where modern radar and defense systems are in play.
Last edited by Tanksmasher; 05-23-2011 at 04:09 PM.. |
05-23-2011, 02:34 PM | #16316 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Agreed on the approach and departure patterns re wake turbulence, but during cruise my understanding is that the spacings are quite large (both in flight level terms and laterally), far larger than they would need to be if there were better location accuracy/knowledge of the aircraft. Indeed with better "scheduling" (including tracking and control) the entire flight corridor business could be gotten rid of which would certainly save time and therefore fuel and money.
There are certainly some advantages but change of that magnitude has to be really justified, especially when people's jobs are at stake. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 05-23-2011 at 03:41 PM.. |
05-23-2011, 03:44 PM | #16317 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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Quote:
I don't see how remote flying would reduce workload, though. Whether on the ground or in the air, two pilots greatly reduce workload, even with current automation, and are safer than one. The pilot flying is monitoring the autopilot while the non-flying pilot is monitoring the pilot flying. Babysitting is what we do now. ;)
Don't worry, was my fault for not being clear in what I was thinking and saying Quote:
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And you'll always need departure and arrival corridors to accomodate the heavy levels of traffic coming into busy airports like Atlanta. The airport's capacity in this example is really the limiting factor. Few runways with too many flights. That's often the reason why planes get slowed down or spaced out in flight.
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I fear I've veered off topic, sorry! |
05-23-2011, 04:00 PM | #16318 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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No sweat. You raise good questions. I agree that much needs to be done and is being considered to reduce fuel burn and improve the synchronization of flights into airports. Afterall the ATC system is still running on some outdated technology and hence soon-to-be-outdated procedures. I'm just trying to point out some variables that often get overlooked. The logisitics alone can be a nightmare to think of. But there are two other major factors that also contribute to delays, hence traffic congestion and more fuel burn. Weather and maintenance. Passengers often forget that weather is uncontrollable and things made of metal always break, and once one becomes a factor, you have a domino delay effect in the system because there is so little time between each departing flight. That's why I pointed out that enhancing airport capacity is sorely needed.
Last edited by Tanksmasher; 05-23-2011 at 04:05 PM.. |
05-24-2011, 09:35 AM | #16319 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Grand Junction,Colorado
Posts: 201
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In Stalker`s 1989 Filecard,it says he went to Army Language School in Montery,Intelligence School at Fort Holabird and Ranger School at Fort Benning. It also says he is a qualified Jumpmaster.
In his 2002 & 2003 Filecards,it has him doing Explosive Ordnance Disposal |
05-24-2011, 11:24 AM | #16320 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,586
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Tanksmasher, I wish I could find that source about the B-2 being painted black for intimidation purposes. But in my fruitless search for it, I came upon this tidbit:
"How the F-117 came to be painted black is an interesting story. Even at night, black is not as good as dark grey for blending into the background. Stars and the moon provide some light, and a shadow against them is noticeable. In areas with more light pollution, where stars are hard to see and moonlight does not add much to ambient illumination, a black shape moving through the sky is also noticeable. The air illuminated at night over cities (especially when cloudy) would also make a black aircraft stick out like a sore thumb, while a grey aircraft would blend into the clouds. For non-light-polluted areas where the stars can be seen at night, an almost-white color might actually be least visible. When the F-117 was being test-flown, Lockheed engineers researched all this, and presented a report to the US Air Force suggesting that their new stealthy fighter-bomber be painted the standard low-visibility grey with a very light grey belly. The commanders in charge of the F-117 program, however, thought that the F-117 could never survive daytime operations, and decided that painting them black would prevent mission planners from ever deploying the F-117 outside the cover of night. So it was painted black not for stealth, but so that the aircraft would not be flown through undue risk. However, in late 2003, some F-117s were finally painted in low-visibility grey, and (just as the commanders feared) were evaluated for daytime operations." There's all kinds of other interesting tidbits in the article, including an explanation for the subtle two tone camo used on the F-22. Cammouflage: low-observable airplanes, visual stealth |
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