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03-17-2010, 01:25 PM | #12211 |
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I guess with the changing landscape of combat, with the move away from the firmly established lines of battle of World War II, military commanders' view of the risk-benefit ratio of airborne operations has changed as well. Last edited by zuludelta; 03-17-2010 at 01:40 PM.. |
03-17-2010, 01:49 PM | #12212 |
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Quote:
True. You could say the same thing for large-scale airborne operations in general. There have been less than 50 combat jumps in US military history (with the majority of them made during World War II), and of the ones conducted after the Second World War (during the Korean War and Operations Urgent Fury and Just Cause) most military historians would probably agree that there isn't any strong evidence that the employment of airborne insertion was any more advantageous than more conventional approaches such as the use of fast, light wheeled vehicles or boats (and the argument could be made that parachuting exposed the soldiers and sailors to unnecessary risks).
I guess with the changing landscape of combat, with the move away from the firmly established lines of battle of World War II, military commanders' view of the risk-benefit ratio of airborne operations has changed as well. See, you push things to far, Zulu. ;) Leave the Airborne alone! In all seriousness, you make good points about the actual practicality of Airborne Operations. But let's take the 82nd Airborne, for example. It's not about jumping out of a plane... not really. It's about volunteering for a duty assignment that requires additional training, a unit that is on a higher state of readiness, and being a part of a unit that requires a higher level of physical fitness - but the main thing is Courage: the idea of jumping out of an airplane is intimidating. Being a part of a unit that requires a soldier to jump every so often to stay "current" is about mental tenacity. It's about cultivating a culture of mental toughness among the airborne troops. That's why the 82nd is the best Division in the Army - it's not just about jumping, it's about what jumping does to make the soldier tougher, braver, and more ready. And, in my humble opinion, it's why I think the 82nd and the 173rd (active Airborne Units) are a cut above the regular USMC Infantry. Average Army Infantry is probably not as dedicated/mentally tough as the Marine Infantry. It's a close contest, and there are certainly some excellent soldiers that can hold their own. But discipline and mental toughness is probably a little higher among Devil Dog Infantrymen. But the Airborne is different - it's awesome. They take their jobs very seriously. They're very proud to be the Airborne. They see themselves as different from the rest of the Army. Those Maroon berets and jumpwings and jump boots are symbols of pride. Just my opinion
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03-17-2010, 01:53 PM | #12213 |
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You misunderstand me oliver. I'm not denigrating the Airborne infantry or their skills and I don't think I wrote anything that could be misconstrued to that effect. What I am saying is that historically, since World War II, military commanders have seen little utility for large-scale airborne operations, and the contemporary thinking is that airborne insertion offers little to no advantages over tactical airlift, helicopter-borne air assault, or conventional ground/water-borne transport in large scale military operations.
Last edited by zuludelta; 03-17-2010 at 01:57 PM.. |
03-17-2010, 03:34 PM | #12214 |
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40,000 feet is almost ludicrous. And it's not like it really helps to jump from a higher altitude. As long as you've got cloud cover, that's pretty much the only thing to worry about. If it's a clear sky, it doesn't make much difference at all. You don't want the enemy to hear/see the aircraft and the jumpers, but at night, 25,000 ft versus 40,000 ft isn't going to make too much difference.
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To be honest, though. HALO jumps are so seldom used, especially into a combat zone. The Navy uses them for the SEALs sometimes, and it's almost a joke because they dump them into the ocean - 5 or 6 miles from shore. Launching from a boat would make much more sense, because they usually jump with a zodiac and use it once they've landed in the ocean.
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03-17-2010, 05:31 PM | #12215 |
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Quote:
True. You could say the same thing for large-scale airborne operations in general. There have been less than 50 combat jumps in US military history (with the majority of them made during World War II), and of the ones conducted after the Second World War (during the Korean War and Operations Urgent Fury and Just Cause) most military historians would probably agree that there isn't any strong evidence that the employment of airborne insertion was any more advantageous than more conventional approaches such as the use of fast, light wheeled vehicles or boats (and the argument could be made that parachuting exposed the soldiers and sailors to unnecessary risks).
I guess with the changing landscape of combat, with the move away from the firmly established lines of battle of World War II, military commanders' view of the risk-benefit ratio of airborne operations has changed as well. HALO as a form of stealthy insertion for small teams makes sense but massive amounts of guys hanging in chutes while the enemy patiently waits for you to get into rifle range seems almost suicidal. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 03-17-2010 at 05:33 PM.. |
03-18-2010, 12:16 AM | #12216 |
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Speaking of HALO jumps it was interesting to learn in Plaster's book about SOG that the first combat HALO jumps were conducted in Vietnam when they were still learning about them. They made several HALO jumps at night because it got to the point that every time they inserted a recon team, the enemy made contact with them due to the fact that helicopters are so noisy and mostly because the enemy had "moles" who knew when and where the teams were going. But SOG was able to keep the HALO jumps secret and it was a very stealthy form of insertion. However, there were many accidents from getting caught up in trees or twisting ankles, some jumpers got separated from their teammates, and one jumper was injured when a "toe-popper" (small anti-personnel mine) exploded in his ruck due to the change in barometric pressure as they descended. It was also hard to see at night but once they finally got the kinks worked out, they finally had a perfect, undetected insertion.
HALO as a form of stealthy insertion for small teams makes sense but massive amounts of guys hanging in chutes while the enemy patiently waits for you to get into rifle range seems almost suicidal.
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03-18-2010, 12:19 AM | #12217 |
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You misunderstand me oliver. I'm not denigrating the Airborne infantry or their skills and I don't think I wrote anything that could be misconstrued to that effect. What I am saying is that historically, since World War II, military commanders have seen little utility for large-scale airborne operations, and the contemporary thinking is that airborne insertion offers little to no advantages over tactical airlift, helicopter-borne air assault, or conventional ground/water-borne transport in large scale military operations.
And you're right, of course, Airborne is a pretty obsolete method of insertion for large scale operations. As I said before: it's more about cultivating a Culture of Courage within Airborne Units. It's a an All Volunteer Unit, with higher physical standards, and you have to be willing to jump out of airplanes to be a part of it - It's attracts a tougher breed of soldier, at cultivates courage. It's that mental tenacity that makes the 82nd the best division in the Army.
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03-18-2010, 12:30 AM | #12218 |
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True. You could say the same thing for large-scale airborne operations in general. There have been less than 50 combat jumps in US military history (with the majority of them made during World War II), and of the ones conducted after the Second World War (during the Korean War and Operations Urgent Fury and Just Cause) most military historians would probably agree that there isn't any strong evidence that the employment of airborne insertion was any more advantageous than more conventional approaches such as the use of fast, light wheeled vehicles or boats (and the argument could be made that parachuting exposed the soldiers and sailors to unnecessary risks).
I guess with the changing landscape of combat, with the move away from the firmly established lines of battle of World War II, military commanders' view of the risk-benefit ratio of airborne operations has changed as well. Also a lot of stuff is done by SOAR for Night Ops. But they still train the Airbourne to be ready to jump. All the SF support guys have to go to Jump School. Most of 2nd ranger brigade does as well. We also have an airbourne MI and field artilary unit here. Last edited by Xsoldier; 03-18-2010 at 12:32 AM.. |
03-18-2010, 12:40 AM | #12219 |
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HALO jumps happen all the time, you just don't hear about them because typically it is only SF that does them. I do about 5 HALO physicals a day at work for 1st SFG Soldiers.
Also a lot of stuff is done by SOAR for Night Ops. But they still train the Airbourne to be ready to jump. All the SF support guys have to go to Jump School. Most of 2nd ranger brigade does as well. We also have an airbourne MI and field artilary unit here.
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03-18-2010, 01:36 AM | #12220 |
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I guess like Zulu is saying, I think it is the fantasy aspect which made the comics and hollywood glorification of the "jump" so compelling. Maybe that helps further the myth of how tough paratroopers are. It's really only works with say a small team, or an individual, like "Rambo II or III."
But the simple fact that modern militaries are capable of inserting elite units silently, by dropping them out of an airplane, must perpetuate the myth of, "Mess with us and we WILL bring the hurt upon you, and you won't even know we're there." Ripcord should so be a Green Beret. Does Civil Air Patrol mean you can fly planes? So if ROC Ripcord is Special Forces do you use him as such? I haven't really included him in my verse yet. I was sort of waiting for the one that really looks like an airborne trooper, but I don't know what I'm going to call him. (Static Line is so hurting for an update.) I'd say as a diversion tactic Airborne troops must have some worth. Sure D-Day and Operation Market Garden are the most glorious airborne insertions in history, but the use of Airborne troops in such a fashion seems highly risky. And unless you have already established air-superiority it would be suicide. And if you have air superiority, I doubt you will run into mass of troops that would require more than a company of men jumping out of an airplane. I mean just drop a cluster bomb. |
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