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02-05-2010, 03:49 AM | #11331 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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I was going to say Recondo as well. What is the gun he came with? It seems like his entire look is taken from a combination of Vietnam era Special Forces Units. The typical unit you have to wear a loud clunky metal helmet. SF, Force Recon, Navy Seals, SAS guys are wearing soft covers for a reason.
I like Hawk as a Delta Force Guy. Heck even Flint as well as Duke and Roadblock. You figure Delta Force guys recruit other guys they know. Still I can't imagine there would be both Delta Force and a unit like GIJoe. GIJoe is Delta Force. |
02-05-2010, 03:51 AM | #11332 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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What about Project Gamma participant Breaker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_GAMMA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_(G.I._Joe) He could have been a way bigger Badass than bubble gum chewing. How is he coming along in the IDW origins line? He's not in the main series and I'm a few issues behind. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 02-05-2010 at 03:54 AM.. |
02-05-2010, 04:58 AM | #11333 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
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I never paid much attention to Breaker, but you bring up a good point. He was probably in 'Nam.
You also bring up a great question about Delta Force and G.I. Joe... are they the same thing? Of course each fan has to decide for himself, but I vote "No". The way I see it, the Joe Team has to be a DoD asset. Delta is an Army Asset (OK, if we're realistic about it, Delta is a SOCOM asset, but the point still stands). The Navy has an equivalent Tier 1 Unit: DevGru, and the Air Force has that Unit with the innocuous nomenclature... the 24th "whatever it is". My point is, each of the 4 military Tier 1 units is from a specific branch of the service. Maybe DevGru gets a few Marines, but that's about it for Cross Over. The CIA has the SAD-SOG guys, but they cease to be in the military when they go to work for CIA. Consequently, I see the Joe Team as a DOD asset because it recruits from all the branches and has equipment from all the branches. Yet, the members retain all their ranks and pay-grades. They remain as members of their respective branches of service. So here's a rough breakdown of how I see it... Army - Delta Force (SFOD-D, AKA "CAG"), The Intelligence Support Activity (ISA - AKA "Grey Fox", "Centre Spike", etc). Navy - SEAL Team 6/DevGru Air Force - 24th "So-and-So" CIA - National Cladestine Service's SAD/SOG DoD - G.I. Joe - I mentioned the other day that the DIA seemed like a plausible home for the Joe Team, but I was just spit balling. There are some other Intelligence Agencies that work for the DoD that could also work as a home for the Joes. But it makes sense to me to place them outside the normal chain of command, and yet retain them as a DOD asset. Plus it means that they can recruit from Delta, and DevGru, and they may have to work along side teh CIA guys, or in competition with them from time to time. Anyway, that's my theory.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
02-05-2010, 05:42 AM | #11334 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
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I always thought that the naming of the GI Joe team, i.e. "Special Counter Terrorist Group Delta, code name: GI Joe" (from issue #1) was to hook into the buzz about Delta Force (or rather 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta), though when you think about the make-up of the team later on, I agree that they can't really be one and the same.
However, the first Joes were pretty much all army weren't they? I don't think we see Wild Bill until issue #11 or thereabouts (isn't he Army air anyway?), and certainly no Navy guys until later on. |
02-05-2010, 06:55 AM | #11335 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Well I remember thinking the designation "Special Counter Terrorist Group Delta, code name: GI Joe" was a definite nod to the real Delta force. I bet Delta Force and GIjoe are probably the same size as well. I mean the full 220 man roster. But later on it looks nothing like Delta Force. It's like it's smaller even.
Were there Green Shirts in the comics? I don't recall any in the Marvel Run. But the 2nd year of GIJoe they added all the other services. Gung-Ho Marine Torpedo-Navy Ace-Air Force Cutter came the very next year. i like to think that the second Year of GI Joe was if fact an extention of the first year. You know in issue #1 when you see the panel with all the Joes and with "Shooter". Well there is another panel to the right which looks like a bald guy, which I assume is Gung-Ho. You figure that panel had 4 joes in total. I like to think that it was that classic 4 from #11. Snow Job (Who should have been in #2), Airborne, and Doc. To the left of Hawk and Zap is most likely two other Joes. I would say Wild Bill and Ace. Wild Bill is probably the most essetial Joe of all. Probably the most popular I bet. I like to pretend there are other hidden gems in the early issues. |
02-05-2010, 10:30 AM | #11336 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
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If you go by Hama's DDP declassified then Ace and Wild Bill were already on the Joe team at the time of issue #1 (they are used to get Shooter into position).
I believe the later half of the series retconned Doc into it with him being present at the time of SE's helicopter accident. I see it two ways (with a possible third depending on how IDW's Joe team ends up being set up, right now it looks like it's leaning towards my #2 idea). #1 - Marvel/DDP/Filecards - This makes it seem like it's a combined branch Delta Force. I think the Joe team replaced Delta Force in the comics world. #2 - The above units still exist and the Joe team is tasked with the more specialized, organized and bigger world threats like Cobra (basically the way I have my stories set up). So Delta, etc.. is tasked with Al Quada (yeah, spelling is wrong, lol) and others like that. The Joe team is tasked with the next step up of organizations. I think most of Hawk's experience was in Europe. I think the Delta Force was added later on to make it have more sense that an Artillery guy is leading a unit like the Joes. His first filecard, the only indication he's the leader is the "makes an excellant leader", which is the last line, and his rank. Joe #1 has him being the leader. There was nothing in Bellomo's book, but I wonder if the Hawk character wasn't meant to be the leader and just got that way because of the rank?
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02-05-2010, 11:00 AM | #11337 |
Crimson Guard
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I don't think I ever considered Flint a Vietnam vet. I'm not sure why. I figured he served with Duke and Roadblock at some point after 'Nam. Maybe late 70s or early 80s, just before Duke joined the Joes. And Roadblock always struck me as just a bit too young to have been in 'Nam. I see him as maybe early-mid 20s when we first see him in 1984, so even if he enlisted at 17 or 18, he would have been too young.
As for the original Joes, we know Snake Eyes and Stalker are definite Vietnam vets and Hawk's a maybe. But I guess I always thought of the other original members as being young soldiers. Scarlett, Steeler, Short Fuze and Breaker seem really young to me. Rock n Roll is probably a bit older so he may have served in the very last days of the war. Clutch, Flash, Zap, Grunt, and especially Grand Slam are little harder to pin down age-wise. I feel like the Joes were conceived as an ultra modern counter-terrorist unit, so it seems like it made sense to recruit mainly young soldiers for the original team with a few vets like Hawk, Stalker, and Snake Eyes to kind of run the show. |
02-05-2010, 11:00 AM | #11338 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Well the question really is which came first the Figures or the comic. Zulu has shown us the Fury Force guys which is where Hama had the idea. Did he bring that to Hasbro and then they said well we have a line of figures we want to create, but tying them into a comic would just be beyond cool?
Did Hasbro go to marvel or was it the other way around? To me Hawk is almost as crucial to the Joe comics as Snake-Eyes. He's like Homer Simpson and Snake-Eyes is like Bart. He's in practically every issue. And it almost seems that the stories he is in are really told from his perspective. Hawk is my Favorite Year 1 joe after Snake-Eyes. |
02-05-2010, 12:33 PM | #11339 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Bellomo's book says Recondo's weapon is an M14, but to me, it looks more like an M1A1 carbine. I trained on an M14 and to me, Recondo's weapon seems a tad too small to be one and the angle at which the magazine is attached to the weapon is all wrong (not to mention that none of the services used pistol grips and retractable/folding stocks with M14s back in 1984).
Quote:
Quote:
#1 - Marvel/DDP/Filecards - This makes it seem like it's a combined branch Delta Force. I think the Joe team replaced Delta Force in the comics world.
#2 - The above units still exist and the Joe team is tasked with the more specialized, organized and bigger world threats like Cobra (basically the way I have my stories set up). So Delta, etc.. is tasked with Al Quada (yeah, spelling is wrong, lol) and others like that. The Joe team is tasked with the next step up of organizations. Quote:
Quote:
I always thought that the naming of the GI Joe team, i.e. "Special Counter Terrorist Group Delta, code name: GI Joe" (from issue #1) was to hook into the buzz about Delta Force (or rather 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta), though when you think about the make-up of the team later on, I agree that they can't really be one and the same.
Quote:
I don't think I ever considered Flint a Vietnam vet. I'm not sure why. I figured he served with Duke and Roadblock at some point after 'Nam. Maybe late 70s or early 80s, just before Duke joined the Joes. And Roadblock always struck me as just a bit too young to have been in 'Nam. I see him as maybe early-mid 20s when we first see him in 1984, so even if he enlisted at 17 or 18, he would have been too young.
Quote:
Well the question really is which came first the Figures or the comic. Zulu has shown us the Fury Force guys which is where Hama had the idea. Did he bring that to Hasbro and then they said well we have a line of figures we want to create, but tying them into a comic would just be beyond cool?
Did Hasbro go to marvel or was it the other way around? This was a year before Hasbro approached Marvel looking to get creative input for the filecards and a tie-in comic produced for their 1982 re-launch of the GI Joe property as a 1:18 line. The story goes that nobody at Marvel wanted to work on the filecards and GI Joe comic (no one wanted to work on packaging text and what was basically a monthly 22 page long ad for toys) except for Hama (and even he needed some convincing). In the process of writing the filecards, he managed to find an avenue through which he could introduce the character concepts he developed for Fury Force into a mainstream product/publication: Fury Force's Spook evolved into Snake-Eyes, Nick Fury, Jr. became Hawk, Steeler (a sergeant in Fury Force) became Steeler (a young lieutenant in GI Joe), Jelly became Stalker, Lilian Gaul became Scarlett, elements of the Fury Force character Brujo would eventually find expression in Gung-Ho and Leatherneck's design and characterization, and Louie Louie would eventually find a second life as GI Joe's Tunnel Rat. Last edited by zuludelta; 02-05-2010 at 12:48 PM.. |
02-05-2010, 02:05 PM | #11340 |
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I think it might be a question of whether or not we're willing to take Action Force into consideration... obviously that has to be done with some adjustments to the American Joeverse. However, the Action Force Battle Files do NOT consider "Action Force" to be the same thing as the SAS, and they mention Delta Force as being separate from G.I. Joe.
This makes a lot of sense to me... so do a LOT of those Action Force Battle Files. It also goes back to what we talked about ages ago: Joe Selection & Training. How hard would Joe Selection have to be in order for it to be a step beyond Delta Force or DevGru? What would it consist of? What are the standards: Physical? Mental? Intellectual? Military Skills? Marksmanship? Obviously, most of the Joes are not former Delta Force, but what would differentiate the Joes from Delta? Troynos has an interesting theory about giving different enemy taskings to different units. But it doesn't work that way in the real world... Delta fights the same kinds of terrorists and same groups as DevGru, SAD, ISA, SF, Rangers, SEALs, etc. It's a combined arms struggle in the war on terror. It might be more an issue of capability and utility... an DIA unit would have less oversight, and be more clandestine. Any Unit that falls directly under the Army or Navy or Air Force will have more oversight and be more public. A DIA unit would also be closer to the direct control of the President and the SecDef. The Joes also seem capable of sustaining operations for a longer time, all by themselves. In that sense, the Joes are somewhat like the Marines... they have all kinds of equipment, and they're trained to operate for relatively long periods of time in any environment: The Flagg arrives just off any shore in the world, and the Joes are in business for a while. The Joes are obviously a lot smaller than the Marines, but the idea of a versitle Quick Reaction Force with Special Operations Capabilities is not too far off the mark.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 02-06-2010 at 03:11 PM.. |
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