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02-24-2010, 08:16 PM | #1031 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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And the film's writers were smart in focusing on that. I remember Platoon and Full Metal Jacket having a somewhat similar effect on me... playing up the esprit de corps angle sort of pushes all the real-world FUBAR stuff into the background.
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02-24-2010, 08:18 PM | #1032 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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Yep, that it does.
But the movie did do a good job of showing the bad effects of the mission as well. Having to watch comrades die, getting lost in the city, bullets flying all day and night.
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02-24-2010, 08:28 PM | #1033 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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That's the weird thing... Black Hawk Down is largely innocent of what Reed calls Hollywood's "off-label" hyping up of Rangers and shows the Battle of Mogadishu in all its FUBAR glory. But for some reason or another, despite the veracity of the film, there didn't seem to be much of a negative public backlash (delayed as it would have been considering the time gap between the actual events and the release of the film based on them) directed at how Operation Gothic Serpent was handled.
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02-24-2010, 08:37 PM | #1034 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I think it's because it doesn't come across on the screen to the general public that the mission planning itself was FUBAR.
It just comes across as the mission hits a snag and just goes wrong, but not that it was poor planning that was the cause.
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02-24-2010, 11:43 PM | #1035 |
Filecard Thread Acolyte
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 124
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I figure the movie is from the soldiers POV of things, so we just wouldn't see the SNAFUs at the higher pay grades... Now I want to watch the directors commentary and see if Ridley Scott talks about it.
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02-25-2010, 09:53 AM | #1036 |
G.I.Joe medic
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Litchfield, ME
Posts: 3,171
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The book "Black Hawk Down" gets more into how much of a cluster the mission was. It talks a lot about how not only was the mission a failure in a tactical sense, but also about how it could potentially have after effects for years to come. Bowden talks about how our political machine's failure to allow the military to carry out its mission could (and probably did) send a message that "if you fight back against us, we'll run away".
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02-25-2010, 02:11 PM | #1037 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Spent the past couple of days working on this and looking for organizational precedents:
I wanted to streamline the organization even more, whilst sticking to the concept that GIJOE is more of a combat intelligence gathering unit which attacks targets of opportunity (as opposed to a dedicated direct action unit). The overall framework for the Armed Reconnaissance Element is based on the structure of a USMC Force Recon company. Unlike the USMC's Force Recon company though (which is composed of two direct action platoons and two deep recon platoons), I adjusted the organization to accommodate the different services and taskings to be found in the original ARAH GI Joe roster. Instead of two direct action platoons, I went with one direct action platoon and a stand-alone light mortar unit (this separation was based on how the US Army staffed airborne infantry companies back in the 1990s). The direct action platoon is also a hybrid formation... its general structure is based on that used by the 82nd Airborne Division's infantry platoons back in the 1980s and 1990s (3 rifle squads + 1 general purpose machine gun squad). I substituted one of the rifle squads with an eight-man SEAL squad with an organic machine gun (that's what the two dots above the SEAL box means). For the two infantry-based rifle squads, the structure is based on contemporary SBCT manning: a squad leader, 2 fireteam leaders, 2 grenadiers, 2 automatic riflemen/SAW gunners, 1 squad marksman, and 1 anti-armor specialist. The two recon platoons are structured based on the services I've drawn them from. For Blue platoon (a cavalry long range surveillance unit), the recon teams are composed of 5 soldiers (a team leader, an assistant team leader, 2 scout observers, and a scout observer/RTO). With the hybrid Green platoon, the SF recon team is composed of 6 men (based on the recon team staffing SF used back in the 1970s: a team leader, an assistant team leader, and 4 scout observers), the Ranger Recon team is composed of 4 men (based on the regimental recon team structures the 75th used before it got its own dedicated special troops battalion: a team leader and 3 scout observers, usually qualified in scout/combat swimming), and the Marine Recon team is composed of 4 airborne and combat dive-qualified reconnaissance men. Compartmentalizing this way also makes it easier for me to write more plausible filecards... for example, I'm writing them so that all the guys in the direct action airborne/mountaineering-qualified infantry squad all come from the same battalion (2nd Battalion, 504th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division), because outside of the 75th Ranger Regiment or the SF groups, that's where you're most likely to find airborne-qualified infantry guys who've taken a military mountaineer course. Anyway, here are the organizations I'm drawing the armed recon guys from, for those of you who are interested in this type of thing and can't wait for me to finish the reference bible:
references: US Special Forces Manual (1986, reproduced by Lancer Militaria), US Army Field Manual 7-85 (June 1990), US Army Field Manual 7-10 (December 1990), Report No. I5921C4A-1 (Table of Manpower Requirements, Reconnaissance Company, 4th Marine Division February 1999), Army Command and General Staff College Special Operations Forces Manual (Academic Year 1999-2000), US Army Field Manual 3-21.94 (April 2003), 504th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade home page, 4th Brigade Combat Team home page Last edited by zuludelta; 02-25-2010 at 10:50 PM.. |
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM | #1038 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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Like the nicknames/codename/callsigns/whatever you picked for the various units.
I like the layout and organization. How much work is involved in redoing what you'd already done?
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02-25-2010, 02:25 PM | #1039 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Not a lot. I'll need to re-do about 6 or 7 images though, because of a change in service (the camo pattern won't fit the source service) or equipment necessitated by the new organization scheme.
Digging up the relevant info and manning precedents was the hard part (seeing as how I'm Canadian and all, and don't have AKO access). I could just as easily have thrown together Joes willy-nilly and most people probably wouldn't really mind, but I wanted to get a sense of authenticity in there, even if I'm the only one who knows it. Last edited by zuludelta; 02-25-2010 at 02:31 PM.. |
02-25-2010, 06:06 PM | #1040 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Awesome stuff Zulu. I eat this stuff up. I was toying with repurposing my Joes as a hybrid FAC/Air Combat Controller/TAC force in conjuction with Artillery Firebases/Airstrips. But I'm not sure how deep FACs and Combat Controllers usually deploy. But your use of the Cavalry Scouts is awesome and fits in.
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