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View Full Version : Are "looks" the most important thing?


General Hawk
09-20-2010, 10:44 AM
As Renegades inches closer to release, it prompts me to wonder... what are G.I. Joe fans' most important aspects to a "good" comic or cartoon?

Are looks really the most important thing? It certainly seems that way, though maybe I'm wrong.

Let's look at G.I. Joe: Resolute. The action was great, and the uniforms were all very consistent with what Joe fans are used to, and it gets rave reviews. The back stories are non-existent, the plot was Sunbow-esque to say the least, and that gets glossed over simply because of the "look".

Now let's look at Renegades...

From what we can gather from the character bio's, an impressive job (in my opinion) has been done maintaining the spirit and feel of G.I. Joe. Destro comes from a long line of Scottish arms dealers... the Baroness certainly sounds like she's going to be Eastern European (judging from her voice actress). Zartan leads a biker gang and gains technology he can use to mimic others.

Flint is somewhat arrogant, but highly intelligent and a good leader. Scarlett and Snake Eyes have their deep-rooted relationship. We have Roadblock instead of Heavy Duty.

A lot of these issues are complaints that fans have had in the past, but by and large they seem to be met with G.I. Joe: Renegades.

So why the hostility? Simply because of "the look"?

I can't wait until the cartoon starts airing...I'm really hoping that once folks see exactly what we're getting opinions will start changing. I feel pretty confident that this will be the case.

Justin

Unclassified
09-20-2010, 10:47 AM
it's like women, i notice the looks of the face first, then move down to the body, and some time after i look for the personality, sometimes the personality don't matter, depends on how good she looks, if she's hot, then who cares if she's a bitch.. i just shove something in her mouth to shut her up..

Freedom
09-20-2010, 10:53 AM
Right now all we have to go on is the look. The look is very simplified. Although a REALLY good story could make up for the look. I say both go hand in hand. If it looks bad, it's going to turn some people off. If the story is weak, it's going to turn some people off. Right now the story sounds like it could be very good.

I have no problem with alternate takes on a universe like G.I.Joe. I think if they really wanted to make it intersting, the could have made a Joe or two be Cobras and vice versa. I mean, if Cobra is supposed to be the "good guys," why wouldn't a Joe be on their side?

The actual cartoon isn't necessarily a concern to me right now. My main concern is how the figures are going to look.

General Hawk
09-20-2010, 10:59 AM
I mean, if Cobra is supposed to be the "good guys," why wouldn't a Joe be on their side?

That's the beauty, though... Hawk, Flint and Lady Jaye are all Government agents, hunting down the Joes. Technically they ARE on Cobra's side, although unwittingly.

That whole story line is a big reason why I love what I'm seeing so far.

I agree, looks are the majority of what we've got to go on, but we've also got pretty decent character bio's, and I see a lot of folks wholly unwilling to even give the cartoon a shot, regardless of what the story MIGHT be. Your outlook is refreshing, but seems to be in the minority. ;)

Justin

Zartanman
09-20-2010, 11:00 AM
when you consider that the medium in which they choose to tell the story IE Cartoons/animation is a VISUAL medium then yes Looks rank pretty high on the mark.

Otherwise we might as well be listening to a radio broadcast with a really great story.

But I am leaving opinions open till I see the cartoon.

Freedom
09-20-2010, 11:06 AM
That's the beauty, though... Hawk, Flint and Lady Jaye are all Government agents, hunting down the Joes. Technically they ARE on Cobra's side, although unwittingly.
Yeah, I know, but they are still separate, and chances are good, eventually, they'll see Cobra for what it is.

I meant a Joe as an actual member of Cobra. Or just go with Mercer. I wish for Mercer's story with every new continuity.

VideoViper
09-20-2010, 11:25 AM
The look is consistant with a lot of cartoons styles. S streamlines look makes for easier animation.

The key to the cartoon will be the storyline. So far it looks good. I think it will be a mix of a more mature storyline than ARAH with a lot of kid level stories so I'm not expecting it to go to dark. That seems on par with a lot of popular animation work in the last several years. The stories that can entertain the adults as well as the kids are the stories that parents leave on the TV when they are in a home where the parent monitors the TV viewing. (There is only so much Thomas the tank a parent can watch :^)

As far as the toys/figure go IMO I hope the toys stay along the same look as POC since the can be used to build upon each other, & not create the 2 separate markets that we see in Star Wars. IMO, I think we have already seen some cartoon toys, (in POC) without realizing it yet.

fireflyguy
09-20-2010, 11:33 AM
As long as the story line is good and the dialogue isn't too cheesy, I'm willing to give it a shot. I would rather them have a more reality-based approach, though, like no lasers and no extra-terrerstrial/fantasy/super-power type stuff, but it will be what it will be. I watch the Clone Wars and some of the dialogue and plots are corny, but overall they do a decent job. I like the animation okay as well, but I DON'T like how it translates into the figures, which is my real only gripe with the Clone Wars.

Unclassified
09-20-2010, 11:59 AM
in all honesty, i'm willing to check out this new cartoon, but i have no clue what chan the hub is, nor how to find out what chan it is..

VideoViper
09-20-2010, 12:05 PM
in all honesty, i'm willing to check out this new cartoon, but i have no clue what chan the hub is, nor how to find out what chan it is..

It is currently called Discovery kids, They will change to name on 10/10/10.

For me its on channel 120 (Comcast NJ), extended cable package, but still assesable. I suspect we will be able to watch online also. For anyone who does not get the channel.

Unclassified
09-20-2010, 12:09 PM
oh yeah, i seen disc kids, yeah it's in the 120's or something, cool thanks man.. when does this show air?

Stoner
09-20-2010, 12:11 PM
it's like women, i notice the looks of the face first, then move down to the body, and some time after i look for the personality, sometimes the personality don't matter, depends on how good she looks, if she's hot, then who cares if she's a bitch.. I just shove something in her mouth to shut her up..

qft!!!!

Unclassified
09-20-2010, 12:12 PM
qft!!!!

lol.. yeah, that should be put in someones sig haha

Lifeline_MD
09-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Mostly its because until recently the look was all we had to go on. Also, lets be honest, when your watching a show or trailer, the first thing you think is "oh gee, this looks awesome!" not, "gee, I wonder if the plot is deep and highly developed."

Humans are programed to rely primarily on our highly developed sense of sight and so that's what we rely on when making many important judgements even if this may not be as good as actual analysis of the product.

As to Resolute vs. Renegades discussion, I don't follow your comments about a poorly developed plot and backstory. No, we didn't get the backstory to every character, but large portions of it was hinted at for the main characters, and keep in mind it was less than 60 minutes of footage. Theres no way to cover proper backstory and character development in that time, just enough to tell one pretty decent cartoon story.

The writing was admittedly not the best in history, but it was pretty darn good, and the animation was excellent - hence the love of the fans.

For Renegades, the writing remains to be seen, the art is not to the tastes of many of the established fans (hopefully it will appeal to the kids), and the basic character descriptions, while in many cases good, also include some details that are a bit disconcerting to long-time fans (ie. Lady Jaye's race change). It could be just as well recieved when we actually get it, but for now, there's a lot of things that feel 'off'.

Black Llama
09-20-2010, 12:25 PM
90% of the cartoons on TV right now fall into 2 categories. There's the classic cartoony stuff. Think Fairly Oddparents and Sponge Bob.

The other camp is the more anime/CG style. Think clone wars and Generator Rex.

I don't think Hasbro is going to go a drastically redefine what a cartoon is with Renegades, so I see it squarely in the latter camp. Though it would be hellishly funny if it did come out Nickelodeon style :D

As long as they keep it well mixed like Clone Wars, I have high hopes for what's coming. A good blend of action/comedy and just enough violence to make it fun.

Xenos
09-20-2010, 12:29 PM
I think the main reasons people are upset about the looks are, one, we don't have a whole lot else to talk about since we don't know much about the story, and more importantly two, the looks will most likely decide the direction the toyline goes. And the toyline is what most people here are really interested in most.

Troynos
09-20-2010, 12:55 PM
Any cartoon, book, tv show is built off the story. It needs a good foundation otherwise it's just eye candy and ultimately hollow and meaningless.

No matter how good it looks, without a good story, it's just flash and no substance and doesn't resonate more then a couple of years.

It takes a good story to make it matter to people.

None of us talk about how "good" Sunbow looked or how "great" the art was in the comics as being what has kept us Joe fans forever.

It always comes down to the story laid by Hama and the folks at Sunbow.





That being said, it is possible to make something look so ugly that no story in the world can save it. I've seen comics like that before.

CV2.0
09-20-2010, 01:23 PM
As long as it's called GI Joe, I'll buy it.

RoC is awesome!

Echo7Solo
09-20-2010, 01:37 PM
well it is more than just the look. It's also the fact that Resolute was made for adults who want what they had as kids in an adult world.

General Hawk
09-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Any cartoon, book, tv show is built off the story. It needs a good foundation otherwise it's just eye candy and ultimately hollow and meaningless.

No matter how good it looks, without a good story, it's just flash and no substance and doesn't resonate more then a couple of years.

It takes a good story to make it matter to people.

None of us talk about how "good" Sunbow looked or how "great" the art was in the comics as being what has kept us Joe fans forever.

It always comes down to the story laid by Hama and the folks at Sunbow.





That being said, it is possible to make something look so ugly that no story in the world can save it. I've seen comics like that before.

This is EXACTLY how I look at it, which is why I'm so surprised at how many folks are willing to just brush off Renegades without even giving it a chance.

Granted, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who are complaining about it that will end up checking it out, but all over the Joe fandom I've seen people hating on Renegades and proclaiming it a failure based purely on art. A lot of those same folks are picking apart the character bio's, nitpicking every little thing, but ignoring some of the major things that Hasbro and the production team have done to maintain the spirit of G.I. Joe.

Just confuses me a bit.

well it is more than just the look. It's also the fact that Resolute was made for adults who want what they had as kids in an adult world.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the appeal of Resolute, totally. I absolutely love it for what it is.

But think about this...what if the Resolute story was done as a live action film with the "look" of the Rise of Cobra? I'm betting fans would have hated it, even as the same feature with a different appearance.

What did people love about Resolute? The violence? There was plenty of that in the Rise of Cobra. Cobra Troopers died all over the place.

The Sunbow storyline? Certainly was plenty of that in Rise of Cobra, too.

The Snake Eyes/Storm Shadow dynamic? I actually think the Rise of Cobra did that better than Resolute.

I just think a lot of opinions are shaped by "look" and while look is certainly important, I just don't think it should be the one and only thing an opinion is based on.

kennywr22
09-20-2010, 04:38 PM
Of course the storyline needs to be good. As for the art, all we've seen really ate the same 10-15 shots of the characters ( which are concept pics). I say wait a bit for more shots and we'll see. I think the art is going to be great.

Trooper13
09-20-2010, 05:54 PM
For me, it's story. As long as it's well written, I'm in. I don't mind different takes on the same characters. There were parts of RoC I really liked. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't want them to remake ARAH. It's been done. I don't need to see them beat a dead horse.

Good art is cool, and I personally dig the look of this new cartoon. I actually don't mind the "stylized" animation styles at all. "The Batman" that was on WB was one of my favorite shows of all time, in terms of both art and writing. That being said, I could watch a Joe stick figure cartoon in the plot and dialogue were well written. Actually, that might be really cool.

A cool slick 'toon is going to grab the kids, and I think Renegades is that cartoon. I just need a good story to lose myself in. I hope I get that.

Sailor_Joe
09-20-2010, 08:04 PM
I think of it like this...

First off... This is a cartoon aimed for kids. Not adults. Once people get the idea out of your their heads that this is for them, the adult fans, I think alot of the conflict with this will cease.

Second... Now matter what any one personal opinion on the RoC movie was, it can be said that this was no Oscar candidate. It's apparent that the studio was shooting for lots of special effects and action appeal. Hence the lack of solid plot, great acting, and other things that make a movie a solid piece of art. It can be said that the effort was put more on the aesthetics (or looks) of the movie rather than the production value. And the movie was best described as "popcorn, feel-good, and action packed". And with that, it is easily forgotten amongst the masses.

Last... I can forgive certain aesthetics because it's supposed to appeal to kids. Since the story is proving to be decent, it is now worthy of my attention. Which is good for what it's purpose is. That is to bridge the gap between fans and kids. The story should prove to be strong, keeping fans interested while the animation is appealing to kids which will keep them interested.

Shin Densetsu
09-21-2010, 03:35 AM
Looks are not the most important thing. Sigma 6 is proof. Sigma 6 had awesome designs but a bad cartoon due to writing and being dumbed down. Afro Samurai looked awesome but IMHO, didn't have a great story.

TF Animated and Clone Wars both have great stories but the designs aren't my ideal choices. They look okay though, and the toys are cool.

What will make or break Renegades IMHO will be how the story is written and how the characters are developed. In this day and age, a dumbed down GI Joe cartoon is going to be left in the dust in favor of a video game.

Echo7Solo
09-21-2010, 04:01 AM
Looks are not the most important thing. Sigma 6 is proof. Sigma 6 had awesome designs but a bad cartoon due to writing and being dumbed down. Afro Samurai looked awesome but IMHO, didn't have a great story.

TF Animated and Clone Wars both have great stories but the designs aren't my ideal choices. They look okay though, and the toys are cool.

What will make or break Renegades IMHO will be how the story is written and how the characters are developed. In this day and age, a dumbed down GI Joe cartoon is going to be left in the dust in favor of a video game.

^ too much truth here. I don't think you will ever make all the GI Joe fans happy. There is a lot of selective memory when it comes to the fan base. If the story is there it will work but based on the look many people will never even consider giving it a shot.

Black Swan
09-21-2010, 05:35 AM
I think of it like this...

First off... This is a cartoon aimed for kids. Not adults. Once people get the idea out of your their heads that this is for them, the adult fans, I think alot of the conflict with this will cease.

Second... Now matter what any one personal opinion on the RoC movie was, it can be said that this was no Oscar candidate. It's apparent that the studio was shooting for lots of special effects and action appeal. Hence the lack of solid plot, great acting, and other things that make a movie a solid piece of art. It can be said that the effort was put more on the aesthetics (or looks) of the movie rather than the production value. And the movie was best described as "popcorn, feel-good, and action packed". And with that, it is easily forgotten amongst the masses.

Last... I can forgive certain aesthetics because it's supposed to appeal to kids. Since the story is proving to be decent, it is now worthy of my attention. Which is good for what it's purpose is. That is to bridge the gap between fans and kids. The story should prove to be strong, keeping fans interested while the animation is appealing to kids which will keep them interested.

I agree. Hasbro is trying to appeal to kids with the new Joe cartoon
but I think with a great stoy line Renegades with an occassional bone to the diehard Joe fanboys will be surprised than disappointed.I'm just there is a new Joe cartoon coming out.

lespaul59
09-21-2010, 05:35 AM
Looks are not the most important thing. Sigma 6 is proof. Sigma 6 had awesome designs but a bad cartoon due to writing and being dumbed down. Afro Samurai looked awesome but IMHO, didn't have a great story.

TF Animated and Clone Wars both have great stories but the designs aren't my ideal choices. They look okay though, and the toys are cool.

What will make or break Renegades IMHO will be how the story is written and how the characters are developed. In this day and age, a dumbed down GI Joe cartoon is going to be left in the dust in favor of a video game.

The Sigma 6 cartoon killed the whole line for me. The only figure I ever got was a Snake Eyes with a dvd.

As far as how important looks are it just depends. I personaly like the Renegades character designs better than Sigma 6 but if the story ends up being similer I'm not gonna watch it much.

MeLikeJinx
09-22-2010, 05:27 AM
To me coolness factor is the most important thing. Character design and animation style is only an aspect of that. Very hard to explain coolness factor... it is just one of those "you know it when you see it" deals.

Shin Densetsu
09-22-2010, 04:50 PM
The Sigma 6 cartoon killed the whole line for me. The only figure I ever got was a Snake Eyes with a dvd.

As far as how important looks are it just depends. I personaly like the Renegades character designs better than Sigma 6 but if the story ends up being similer I'm not gonna watch it much.

The story was the worst thing about Sigma 6. From what we've read about Renegades, it's shaping up to be much better. The story will make or break it for me.

Brave & The Bold, TF Animated, and Clone Wars all have styles that are not my preference but the stories and the way they are animated won me over. For Brave & The Bold...the series is on the more kiddified side and initially I thought it was stupid. It wasn't until I saw a random later episode that I realized that the show was actually done very well.

If it were up to me, I'd have an OVA/anime movie quality GI Joe series with writing catered to an older audience, but that has a fat chance of ever happening. Something like getting Gage and Costa from GI Joe Cobra to pen it with Studio Gonzo animating it with a huge budget.