GI Joe Character refresh based upon JoeCon Panel

[cardensb]

I attended Kirk Bozigian's Panel at the Convention and started to do a little critical thinking of how to keep some characters while retiring most to do a refresh as he suggested the line may need. Kirk was the Hasbro marketing rep that was responsible for bringing us GI Joe as we know the line from 1982; he has since retired and speaks his mind. I apologize for the wall of text, in advance.

My proposal basically retires most of the current cast since many are Vietnam, Grenada or Desert Storm veterans (or at least the canon that many of us cling too) and keeps a few around for continuity.
He also proposed a tech refresh since even in 1982, GI Joe was on the cutting edge. The POC / ROC lines kept us at current tech except for some tech from ROC:Movie that most of us rejected.
I would also take this time to fix organizational problems within GI Joe that have led to who knows how many discussions.
He also proposed wiping out Cobra as we know them and go after new threats. How is it that the premiere US fighting force is still 25 years later battling an organization started as a pyramid scheme by a disgruntled, used car salesman.

So who would I keep around and in what role?

Leadership: Someone commissioned in 1995 would have recently been promoted to O-5 at least in the US Army. So I used that as a starting point. Current First Sergeants / Master Sergeants (Team Sergeants) with a Special Forces MOS would have enlisted around 1998.
What does that mean:
Basically everyone on the roster prior to 1986 retires. An enlistee in 1982 would be facing mandatory retirement.

Grid-Iron could potentially be a General Officer and commander (not that I am a fan of him...)

Potential Sergeant's Major or former members kept on as training cadre (E-4 NLT 1986 and solid combat arms background; however many current SGMs enlisted after Desert Storm)
1. Sci-Fi, E-4, Infantry in 1986
2. Outback, E-5, Infantry in 1987
3. Sneak Peek, E-5, Infantry in 1987
4. Hardball, E-4, Infantry in 1988 (if you ignore is death in the Devil's Due comics)
5. Hit&Run, E-4, Infantry in 1988
6. Muskrat, E-4, Infantry in 1988
7. Spearhead, E-4, Infantry in 1988
8. Downtown, E-4, Infantry in 1989 (Special Operations secondary)
9. Ambush, E-3, Infantry in 1990
10. Freefall, E-5, Infantry in 1990
11. Cloudburst, E-4 Infantry in 1991
12. Banzai, E-4, "Commando" in 1993
13. Long Arm, E-4, "first strike specialist" in 1993
14. Barrel Roll, E-4 "sniper / HALO" in 2003
15. Kamakura, E-5 Infantry in 2003

Potential Senior NCOs would be any new character after 2002 if introduced as an E-5 or lower.
1. Hard Drive and/or Hi-Tech - potentially senior communications NCOs for the team (could be active on select missions)
2. Bombstrike - Senior Fires NCO (probably still is active not just a desk jockey)
3. Cannonball - active driver / Infantry (E-4 in 2005; likely an E-7 by now - driver MOSs prmote slower than combat arms)
4. Tiger Claw - E4 Infantry, SE apprentice in 2005
5. Red Zone - E4 "urban warfare" in 2006
6. Rook - E4 "linguist/interrogator" in 2006 (probably in a CI role)

Senior Staff Specialists
1. Medic or perhaps Doctor - Lifeline (the second lifeline), E-5 medic in 2002
2. Medic or perhaps Doctor - Sideswipe, E-5 medic in 2002
3. Barrage - 2005 as a MAJ potentially makes him a LTC now and perhaps the senior fires officer or XO

Other
Snake Eyes - Stays on as a contractor as the Silent Master for advanced training and assistance (He is getting old but is probably extremely fit and capable)
Flint - stays on as a GS civilian perhaps as a deputy commander (He would have retired as a CW5 with a lot of specialized experience and many SOF units have retirees in specialized roles for continuity of routine operations; his file cards and comic background due not put a defined timeline on his career such as Stalker, Hawk, etc...)

Fresh faces for most of the team. Get the ranks right for the positions.
Organization:
Commander is an O-6/O-7
Deputy is a GS or O-5/O-6
CSM Senior Enlisted Advisor vice Duke's role as 1SG
Establish more than one squadron / battalion comparable to special forces units. Do not worry about random staffers being named and defined as core characters, green shirts fill in as needed. The focus is on the warrior or skill specialist as we have been for 30 years.
Named Joes are E-5, E-6, E-7, E-8, O-3, O-4
E-4s only in support roles like mechanic, clerks, armorers, supply, etc... (probably only 1-2 named for the sake of story lines)
No environmental specialists as a skill - they are Infantry, Special Forces, tankers, etc... with advanced training
Keep and expand the other services; more SEALs, boat operators, spec op Marines, STS, etc...
Include an Air wing of aircraft - Ospreys (replace Tomahawk), C17 (vice C130), MH-60s, create a variant of the AH-64 to replace the Dragonfly. Create small aircraft to fit the role of the jet pack, gliders, etc...
Increase female characters - big Army is increasing their roles in combat units, SOF is putting them on female engagement teams, they are in MISO (formerly PSYOP).

Technology - look at what is in development. I know we hated nano tech, pulse weapons, etc... but they are in the works.

Have not given much consideration to a new enemy although something close to AQ and narco-terrorists would be a good start.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Ford]

That sounds a bit too technical and realistic to me. I never really considered the backstories for the characters as written in stone anyway. Like Snake Eyes, Stalker and Storm Shadow serving together in Viet Nam. That could just as easily have been Desert Storm, or some fictional war. I never really followed the ranking system either. Since the Joes were made up of so many different factions, it makes sense for them to have their own chain of command, independant of the various branches of military.

I'm all for the retiring of characters though. Pretty much nobody made in 1987 or afterwards should ever be made into a figure again. Just pick a few select characters from 82-86, and then surround them with all new characters.

[Loose Cannon]

Wow that is pretty intense but I also see as neccessary. I love all of it. So who is CO? A 55 year old general would have been commissioned in 1981-82. So pretty much any officer we've had except Hawk, Keel-Haul, Colton, Flagg III, and Claymore since he's also a Vietnam vet.

Steeled? Falcon? Courage? Lt. Stone (extreme) ? Grid -Iron? Maj Storm? MAJ Barrage? It should be an existing character to keep the continuity.

The one thing I always loved was new characters. Can you imagine how it would have been had guys retired and newer characters could have made the spot light? All the while keeping with current events?

Still since the Joe's wouldn't really fight real terrorists the timeliness could be stretched to keep characters around. Maybe Cobra could be good for a while as pmcs?

[Beckley]

I like it, and as much as I like characters like Clutch & Grand Slam, maybe it is time for them to retire.
I think it would be cool if Stalker got promoted to General and replaced Hawk.

[musashi3000gt]

What about IDW? Everything Kirk said was based on the concept that we are still hanging onto Marvel's comics and Sunbow's cartoon story lines.

IDW has been writting the GI Joe comics for 3 years now and have made all the characters current and the tech work. They made M.A.S.S. look like a real feasable thing. They made Snake Eyes look like a real badass Afghanistan war vet. They even made a new back story for Zartan that kicked ass.

[sbartek1974]

Yeah, I don't think they should retire anyone. Just update and make them young again. Reboot. Redo. Start from scratch with the same folks. Like what they do to Spiderman, Batman, Superman, etc...

[Lifeline_MD]

There isn't really a need to completely re-create the cast.

The same characters (in general) can work, its just the time point and stories that need to be updated.

Look at what IDW did. Most of the characters are still the same as they were, with some updated in personality or appearance t obetter match a modern military group. Worked quite well.

That's not to say that we shouldn't start introducing more new characters. We get about 60 figures per year (except when things get delayed). IMHO 10-15 of those should be original characters all the time. Like Helix, or the Joe trooper, or....well that's it recently really, which is the problem.


Look at any of the fan fictions on this site, the same core cast of characters with new ones thrown in to fit the spaces that don't currently have people in them. But the stories are all completely original. That's more what we need IMHO.

[Loose Cannon]

I agree I like a lot of what IDW is doing, but they do not have a toy line to match. but cobra destroying the Golden Triangle so they can corner the market on illicit drug trade is brilliant.
However the rank and structure of IDW joe is even more confusing, especially with all the deaths. Too many random deaths of unknown named characters, who are impossible to tell who is who. Not to mention some known characters look nothing like they use to, only to die two panels later. Plus I like Duke as a Colonel as he always was portrayed as a leader, but E-7 to O-6 is ridiculous. I would rather he got a battlefield commission and then worked his way up.

[krisk]

What about IDW? Everything Kirk said was based on the concept that we are still hanging onto Marvel's comics and Sunbow's cartoon story lines.

IDW has been writting the GI Joe comics for 3 years now and have made all the characters current and the tech work. They made M.A.S.S. look like a real feasable thing. They made Snake Eyes look like a real badass Afghanistan war vet. They even made a new back story for Zartan that kicked ass.

This is what I was thinking.......not so much of a retiring but more of a reimagining.....like DC just did......it would be easy to do it, Rise of Cobra did just that but they went WAY overboard with it. Easily feasible and could keep the same names just differ join dates.

[musashi3000gt]

If Hasbro really wanted GI Joe to take off it would. Guys like Kirk Bozigian consult to them for God's sake! They have all the trade secrets on what to do to make it work. IDW has done a damn good job of modernizing the comic characters. Resolute was absolutely amazing! Cartoon Network funded that shit! They could of made an entire series based on Resolute. Maybe tone down the death and stuff for the kids but it could of worked far better than Renegades did.

The only reason GI Joe is not where we want it to be is cause Hasbro's senior management dossent care for it. Its just another line they own, no big deal, not as big as Transformers or Star Wars is. Someday they might get thier act together and come back strong but till then we gotta sit and wait.

[GI Guppy the third]

I don't know if I'd keep a single character around. Even Hawk should be retired. Scarlet as a 50+ year old might work. She could kind of be the new force's version of M from the Bond series. The key to making new characters though is to not make them carbon copies of previous characters. If you make a central character, don't make him Duke with dark hair and facial hair. I think it's also important to have a lot more diversity. I'm not talking just making a character black but making characters of mixed backgrounds to more truly represent America.

I think there's a lot that has happened in terms of technology in the last 20 years that we weren't even thinking about back then. I always thought it would be cool to revamp the HAL as a weapons emplacement that can be dropped on a battle field and operated remotely. In fact there's a lot of stuff they can make that are like updated drones that can give GI Joe a more solid identity separate from other branches of the armed forces.

I think they need a large array of villians that represent different types of corruption and not narrow it down to just a terrorist group. PMCs, dictatorships, corrupt exploitive capitallists, anarchists, etc.. The thing I always loved about the comic book was how some of the more dangerous individuals were the ones that Hawk was a subordinate to.

[Troynos]

Don't need to refresh the characters so much as refresh the continuity and start a new one (which is what they have been trying to do).




The toys did refresh. Flint was meant to replace Duke. Roadblock replaced Rock 'n Roll. Downtown replaced Short Fuze. Leatherneck replaced Gung-Ho. Sci-Fi replaced Flash. Dial-Tone replaced Breaker. Heavy Metal/Mauler replaced Steeler/MOBAT. Crankcase/AWE replaced Clutch/VAMP. Slipstream/Conquest replaced Ace/Skystriker. Beachhead replaced Stalker. Lady Jaye replaced Scarlett.

[Jefehawk]

I get what you guys are saying but it seems like there are so many joes that played "bit parts" if you will, and why can't they become the new faces? Why can't spearhead be a new leader? Or guys that have been around even longer like psyche out (minus the dumb costume) take a bigger roll...I don't think I could attach myself to a brand new group like i have over the last 25 years...does that make sense? Would be cool to see 4-5?new characters though.

[Troynos]

Why can't the OG guys be the OG guys again?

Clinging to continuity is all well and good, but why?

Why not start fresh?

[PhantomStranger]

I'm not sure how a feel about G.I. Joe completely cutting down their roaster to only certain characters.

I always felt that Joe and other lines used something of a floating timeline, or was like IDW and keept all the characters and just tweaked the story.

Although I always love hearing about how others interpret Joe in their own personal universe.

I certainly agree with what lifeline stated about adding new Characters. Hasbro really needs to add more characters throughout the line, either by having new original characters/Army builders or using Characters that we haven't seen in decades. Hasbros has had the rights to M.A.S.K. since they bought Tonka/Kenner in 91 and what have they done with it? A single Matt Tracker figure for the 25th Anv. line.

They could easily make a Miles Mayhem out of a CC or a Vanessa Warfield out of a Zarana/Scarlett Kit bash, but we have yet to see anything.

[Troynos]

Right now, with the toys, there is no real continuity to worry about adding/subtracting charcters.

ARAH doesn't really exist as a continuity anymore.

The 30th? PoC? Those weren't story continuities like is being discussed. They were design lines, not story lines.

Renegades was a new continuity, so it didn't matter who the characters were, they were being introduced for the first time. Same with RoC/Retaliation.


So really, there are no refreshes needed, because there is no current continuity.

[Night_Force_GI_EDDO]

I just had a cool thought. What if they did a story based around the trashed idea of Cobra-La in the third season of the cartoon? What if for the sake of something new, they start with Falcon and the roughnecks as the main cast. They don't need to kill duke, but have him in a smaller role, or write him out.
I always wondered what that third season would have been like had they kept cobra-La in as an adversary. In this version they could even get rid of cobra commander, since he would still have been a snake....And frankly the whole dragon fire idea never really made much sense to me anyway. They could basically start fresh...since that is what the third season was suppose to do anyway. I just feel like they went the wrong direction by going with Captain Grid-Iron and Gnawgahyde instead of Falcon and Pythona.

[thejuan]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of characters but if you are getting rid of so many then get rid of snake eyes too. There's no sense in keeping him over any of the others except for favoritism.

[TripleCP]

No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The core characters aren't well known by most kids, so their back stories can easily be modernized. Vietnam vets can become Iraq/Afghanistan vets. You could make the core group be comprised of veterans of a single Spec Ops team (like the O13) and then add in new members (both vets of other units/service branches as well as relatively green recruits).

Why would Cobra need to be replaced? Isn't that what was tried in the abandoned first script for the live action movie (one that was supposedly so bad, it made the RoC script look good by comparison?)

The Renegades idea of making Cobra a hugely influential multinational corporation with its own paramilitary arm is one way to go to keep them relevant. Another might be to adapt a storyline similar to that of the original Command & Conquer game, with Joe as GDI, Cobra as the Brotherhood of Nod, and Compound Z as Tiberium.

Command and Conquer eventually jumped the shark into the realm of total sci-fi/alien invasion, etc. but the initial storyline was the sort of hybrid of real world military and sci-fi that fits Joe vs Cobra to a tee (much of the C&C weaponry is practically cloned from the GI Joe world) .

[Sgt Major Haley]

What IDW is doing is fine.

Only things I havent liked about it are Zartan being a clone and the Pit being this huge underground city.

[ltfalcon]

Kirk has tried reboots in the past. Look at Sgt Savage and the screaming eagles, a Captain America style reboot.

I agree just update all the characters to modern day and reboot their history. I still think a gritty toon like resolute would bring the joes back.

The best idea is a Johnny Quest style reboot the uses the Adventure Team theme. You can bring in core charachters as needed depending on the mission while maintaining 4-6 or so main charachters that run the organization. The characters, vehicles, missions, enemies, could be endless.

[skinny]

I think a total reboot is necessary, There are only so many stories you can tell with the "old" roster, before you get repetetive. Snake Eyes is a great example of this. His story is always the same. terrible loss, disfigurement, arashikage family squabbles, tragic romance, invulnerable, mysterious.

Resloute was a final chapter to the saga more than a reboot

DDP tried a revamp using only those characters still fit for duty, gave them all new uniforms. However something just did not work.

Retaliation is sort of doing what you suggest, but in a more drastic fashion by wiping out GIJOE, or close to it.

IDW rebooted but does not have the popularity or the backing it needs from Hasbro. What I mean is Hasbro has taken nothing from the current titles and integrated it into the toyline. No "new" characters like Firewall, nor any story elements like Krake written into the filecards.

I would like to see Hasbro take Joe back to its core roots. Who are the essential people to have on a team? What are their functions?
infantry, communications/computers, muscle, spy, brains, pilot, etc.
Start with the building blocks and create entirely new characters to fill those roles. Keep the name GIJOE only.

[nerdsgetchicks]

What about IDW? Everything Kirk said was based on the concept that we are still hanging onto Marvel's comics and Sunbow's cartoon story lines.

IDW has been writting the GI Joe comics for 3 years now and have made all the characters current and the tech work. They made M.A.S.S. look like a real feasable thing. They made Snake Eyes look like a real badass Afghanistan war vet. They even made a new back story for Zartan that kicked ass.

I agree I like a lot of what IDW is doing, but they do not have a toy line to match. but cobra destroying the Golden Triangle so they can corner the market on illicit drug trade is brilliant.
However the rank and structure of IDW joe is even more confusing, especially with all the deaths. Too many random deaths of unknown named characters, who are impossible to tell who is who. Not to mention some known characters look nothing like they use to, only to die two panels later. Plus I like Duke as a Colonel as he always was portrayed as a leader, but E-7 to O-6 is ridiculous. I would rather he got a battlefield commission and then worked his way up.

I agree with this 100%. You can reboot and keep all the favorites!

I don't like the idea of getting rid of characters but if you are getting rid of so many then get rid of snake eyes too. There's no sense in keeping him over any of the others except for favoritism.

Take a bump on the head did we? LMAO!!

[Stryker927]

I say keep the characters and update the backstory to be Gulf War or Afgan vets similar to what IDW did. This isn't "Star Wars" (thank God) where we have to have this legacy and extended universe with complete continuity.

[shepherdman]

I love this topic. My son helps me with the customs and we have a lot of fun with the different universes. We have our cartoon box of characters, where they all are pretty accurate. We had a Resolute box for a while (though I have cannibalized it for other parts since). Now we have our Movie Universe box where we have combined Renegades, ROC, and Retaliation. Use only characters that have appeared in those. We also have a box where Major Barrage is in command of all the new characters. So I like having the best of both worlds. Only think I wish is that they would get the ranks right. Drives me crazy seeing a Sgt. fly a plane...

[GI Guppy the third]

Realize, when it was at it's height, every year gave us 100% new characters with some replacing others. Only occasionally did old figures get reboots. Now, the only time you might find a new character is through some kitbashed driver fig that no one really cares for.

[cardensb]

My opinion (I started the thread) is that retiring everyone is not necessary but updating everyone's background is as well as costume.

Costume examples - why is Shipwreck, a Chief Petty Officer wearing the uniform of a lower rank? Anyone who has spent time with Navy types will know that a Chief is not running around in dungarees. Look at all the 25th Ann figures - how many are wearing modern outfits? Wonder why kids did not go crazy over them? That line did not represent the Real American Heros they saw on TV, in the news, their parent, aunt, uncle, neighbor, whoever that wore a military uniform to work. The POC line did some great updating of appearance it is just too bad Hasbro can't produce a decent file card these days.
Someone mentioned that Hasbro released new figures to replace the old like Short-Fuze and Downtown for example but the other markets like the comic and cartoon industries never really followed suit. I recall an issue where LJ and Footloose arrive and say they are replacements yet Scarlett is still on missions 150 issues later. (At least Grunt went back to college eventually) I also recall the originals being put on desk duty, given promotions and medals minus SE (which would have been fine had they stayed there). Even though Quick Kick appeared to be an appropriate replacement for SE shortly after.

I think that is why Kirk says retire the existing cast and recruit fresh names and faces. We as long time fans cling to those we grew up with. I still am not happy that Larry Hama killed Breaker, my first Joe toy. Many fans still harp over o-ring technology.

A total reboot would be good in order to draw in the younger audience but characters need to be updated in appearance and background material. Then the various industries that used the GI Joe license need to get on board and support it.

[Saboteur]

All of this is avoided by simply taking the existing characters and placing them in today's world. Rather than having Stalker and Snake Eyes as Vietnam veterans, they're simply veterans from the current war "War on Terror".

You keep the characters and continue to place them in the current times.

I do think that a vast majority of the roster needs to be retired though. There's just too many. The existing, active roster should be no more than a dozen, or 13 (for nostalgic sake) if even that.

One of the things that has hurt the brand over time was believe it or not, it's overwhelming success that caused Hasbro to continue to pour out new and more characters each year. While that was great for folks who have favorites from later years, it took away from the focus on a core group of members that would've enriched the story and given stronger characters.

Who to keep and who to give the ax, is where people will disagree though.

[Nightrain]

I don't know if I'd keep a single character around. Even Hawk should be retired. Scarlet as a 50+ year old might work. She could kind of be the new force's version of M from the Bond series. The key to making new characters though is to not make them carbon copies of previous characters. If you make a central character, don't make him Duke with dark hair and facial hair. I think it's also important to have a lot more diversity. I'm not talking just making a character black but making characters of mixed backgrounds to more truly represent America.


Agreed completely. I'm sick of this fandom's obsession with rehashing the same characters over and over. Whether they be brand new characters or some lesser characters who moved up in rank - either is fine with me. But enough with the rehash.

[Ford]

It's better to just make a new character rather than refresh an old one. People get way too upset when a character gets refreshed in a way that they don't like. And most of the time it's the minor characters and minor changes that piss people off the most. Like if Mutt didn't have a mustache. Just look at how worked up some people got about Lady Jaye having long hair in the movie. You can't mess with a 30 year old character. Just make new ones. Devils Due tried, but gave up way too quickly and just brought back all the old characters and magically made them young and in shape again.