Avengers vs. the X-Men discussion

[ndb]

Who else is reading this event? I picked up the first two issues, and they were entertaining. The AR feature is pretty cool too, especially on the #1 cover.

I do have a question though: How does Hope have the Pheonix's powers? I'm getting the impression it is already inside her, and on other pages, the Pheonix is barreling towards Earth. Help?

[pig iron grenadier]

Your guess is as good as anyone's. My guess is that she may already have it innately, or since the Phoenix is on par with Beyonder level power it doesn't need to be in proximity to expand it's power influence. Phoenix can probably influence/affect people across a galaxy.

[ndb]

Okay, so I'm not missing an important story plot or comic book...

Sheesh. Marvel should really get their act togather.

[Raw Dog]

I'm excited to see how all of it plays out. The confrontation between Cap and Cyclops felt a little forced to me. I mean, they are both super heroes who have saved the Earth together on multiple occasions and I just feel like they would have likely been on the same page. What I mean is, I feel like Cap would have been more likely to give Cyclops the benefit of the doubt and offered to help him rather than demand that he hand his granddaughter over so that the Avengers could sacrifice her for the greater good? Anyways, I guess they needed a reason to fight otherwise there would be no story so I'm cool with it.

[Troynos]

The whole thing is HORRIBLE. Really crap writing. Bad.


Hope is the host for the Phoenix and she's a power mimic. So really she's mimicing the power of the Phoenix as it prepares her to be the new host.

[pig iron grenadier]

I think they are setting the Utopia mutants as the new Brotherhood style group--to be perceived as villains.....Magneto, emma, juggernaut/Piotr, magick-demon girl, Namor, mini-sabretooth kid, etc, etc............If Hope becomes Phoenix then there ya go.
Wolverine , kitty and Rogue have the good kids school already going after all. :)

[pig iron grenadier]

Spoilers for A V X VS title.....
Spoilers...




Thing has never been shown to be truly stronger than Namor--more evenish than anything, and underwater Namor would slaughter Thing...sorry Marvel editorial you fail.

Magneto controls electro-magnetism now--not just metal. He would slaughter Iron Man....Again, editorial fail.

I even prefer the Avengers to X-Men, but really that is a bit ridiculous and just.... wrong!

[Troynos]

I HATED Vs #1.

It was so stupid. Had Deus Ex Machina reasons for Iron Man and Thing winning.

Iron Man has to use satellites that access Jupiter's Magnetic fields but it's still Magneto sensing the Phoenix and basically given up.

Namor essentially knocks himself out with the giant sea monster sized fish that just happens to be swimming around San Francisco Bay?


Marvel copped out with that series hardcore. They didn't want any one character to appear stronger then the other, to actually win, so they rigged the fights.

It's dumb and the AvX title is horribly written. One of the worst event books ever written.

[ndb]

Hope is the host for the Phoenix and she's a power mimic. So really she's mimicing the power of the Phoenix as it prepares her to be the new host.

Hmm, yeah, we'll go with that. I enjoyed the first two issues, and I will pick up the rest, but I probably won't read buy into another crossover. The library will get it two weeks after the trade comes out.

[Lord Norin]

The Avengers basically had to rely on the innate goodness of the X-Men to Win. Magneto basically cedes the fight to Iron Man, Colossus allows the Red Hulk to beat him down, otherwise he might've destroyed the spire that supports Utopia. And I honestly don't know how you can call the Namor/Thing fight a victory for either character.

The writing is just god awful!

[pig iron grenadier]

The whole thing is HORRIBLE. Really crap writing. Bad.


Hope is the host for the Phoenix and she's a power mimic. So really she's mimicing the power of the Phoenix as it prepares her to be the new host.

Hmm, yeah, we'll go with that. I enjoyed the first two issues, and I will pick up the rest, but I probably won't read buy into another crossover. The library will get it two weeks after the trade comes out.

Curious..does Hope have to be in proximity to mimic powers?

[ndb]

Curious..does Hope have to be in proximity to mimic powers?

I'm not gonna even think about it. Lol

[riot_control]

Ugh...AvX #3 was just awful!!!

[Troynos]

Curious..does Hope have to be in proximity to mimic powers?


Don't know because they have never once specified what Hope's powers really are. They say she's a power mimic but they've left it completely vague so that they can do the Phoenix stuff and basically anything they want with her.

The last writer of Generation Hope didn't even know what the extent of her powers was. Which is just stupid that the writer of her own book doesn't know what she can do.

Adventure’s In Editing #2 – Marvel’s Turn « The Comixverse (http://thecomixverse.com/?p=35742)

Ugh...AvX #3 was just awful!!!

It's on my desk to read. Probably tonight. Worse then #2 because #2 was completely horrible.

[Raw Dog]

Gosh, I don't think it has been as bad as all that, lol. #2 was better than #1 IMO. I can buy any character going over another character depending upon the circumstances so things like Mags losing to IM don't really bother me. I mean I guess they could have done a better job of explaining the how, but I think the point of #2 was just to show the fight and that is what it did. I enjoyed it. I am excited to see where it goes next issue.

[Lord Norin]

#3 was not good....

SPOILERS AHEAD ..........

Wolverine being taken down by Captain America (with a blindside assist by Hank Pym, which by the way wolvie should've smelt or sensed his presence) was about as stupid as possible...

Bendis had logan join his avengers back in New Avengers #4 (or 5) to do the things the rest of the avengers can't or won't do...

Moreover I think Logan's decision to kill Hope which is a stupid one, Logan should know that seeing as how Rachael Grey-Summers was able to control the Phoenix force for several years....

Gah... This may be the worst event in many years...

[Clobbertron]

The whole thing is HORRIBLE. Really crap writing. Bad.


Hope is the host for the Phoenix and she's a power mimic. So really she's mimicing the power of the Phoenix as it prepares her to be the new host. I agree. The first issue was decent but it turned around pretty quick. With an Avengers movie out it’s obvious that the Xmen get whipped but it’s getting really silly. Now it feels more like WWF wrestling!

[ndb]

I got #3 today, and uh.... Cap threw Wolverine out of a transport? WHAT? Cap wouldn't do that, and I'm pretty sure Wlvy wouldn't be stabbing at him. This event is starting to get on my nerves.

Not to mention the AR app isn't working on my issue. Anybody else have this problem?

[Clobbertron]

I got #3 today, and uh.... Cap threw Wolverine out of a transport? WHAT? Cap wouldn't do that, and I'm pretty sure Wlvy wouldn't be stabbing at him. This event is starting to get on my nerves.

Not to mention the AR app isn't working on my issue. Anybody else have this problem?

What is the AR app?

[ndb]

The app for iOS systems. You scan the pages with the ar symbol, the screen shows you a commentary from the creators, the evolution of the art, etc.

[Troynos]

Those AR things are ANNOYING all over the page. Distracting.

I like the idea behind it, but implementation is wrong.


So much about #3 was forced. Cap and Logan fighting? Bad.

Cyclops surrendering but off panel? That seems a pretty major thing, shouldn't it have been shown?

Romita Jr's art is bad and has been for awhile.

AvX is just bad.

[pig iron grenadier]

Bad.....but curious to those that got one of the 2 normal priced variants---did you side with avengers or x-men?

[USAgent]

Those AR things are ANNOYING all over the page. Distracting.

I like the idea behind it, but implementation is wrong.


So much about #3 was forced. Cap and Logan fighting? Bad.

Cyclops surrendering but off panel? That seems a pretty major thing, shouldn't it have been shown?

Romita Jr's art is bad and has been for awhile.

AvX is just bad.

agree 100% with this. so much terribleness stuffed between covers. cap would never ask one of his guys to stand-down from a fight and punch him in the face at the same time. i know they're trying to say that cap knows how dangerous wolverine is and had to take the initiative- but that was just stupid. he would have talked about it- not attacked him... just so poorly handled. this garbage is worse then fear itself

[USAgent]

Bad.....but curious to those that got one of the 2 normal priced variants---did you side with avengers or x-men?

both teams are acting so far out of character it's hard to say. based off how they are being presented in this 'event' i think only wolverine has it right and everybody else is operating on 4loco and redbulls.

[ndb]

both teams are acting so far out of character it's hard to say. based off how they are being presented in this 'event' i think only wolverine has it right and everybody else is operating on 4loco and redbulls.

Yep. My team Wolvy shirt arrives in the mail tomorrow. :D

[pig iron grenadier]

Again, I think this is just going to further push Avengers towards SHIELD, make Wolvie/Rogue the accepted X-Men and push Scott and the others into brotherhood status. I think it's simply a matter of waiting to see how they decide to flip this....

[riot_control]

So far i think the best issue was 0

[Clobbertron]

The app for iOS systems. You scan the pages with the ar symbol, the screen shows you a commentary from the creators, the evolution of the art, etc. Thanks man. for some reason I was thinking QR code.

[ndb]

Avengers Vs. X-Men Act Two: No More Avengers | Marvel Heroes | News | Marvel.com (http://marvel.com/news/story/18703/avengers_vs_x-men_act_two_no_more_avengers)

Interesting. Scarlett Witch will be returning for sure.

[riot_control]

Wait...what? AvX #5...aren't we only on #4 next week?

[ndb]

Yeah, but the hype for part 2 is already beginning. Suddenly I'm interested again.

[Troynos]

Wait...what? AvX #5...aren't we only on #4 next week?

It's a bi-weekly shipping schedule. And #5 marks the end of the first part.


And I'm still not excited.

I'm not a big fan of super hero vs super hero fights. They're usually pretty stupid and there ends up being some kind of "cheat" that allows one to win so that both save face.

I could overlook all that if AvX was remotely good.

It's not. It's badly written, which is surprising considering the talent involved, and it's got horrible art from Romita.

[ndb]

Anyone mind PMing me what happened in A vs. X #4 and 5?

[Jay West]

Anyone mind PMing me what happened in A vs. X #4 and 5?

#5 has been spoiled on Newsarama and wow am I not impressed. That particular scenerio is so obviously temporary and will have zero lasting ramifications. Marvel has to sell me on these events having game changing events and mattering otherwise it is not worth my time.

About the only thing that would get me into this series would be if the Marvel Universe would get some sort of mini Crisis/Update - which I think it needs. I don't want anything as radical as the New 52, but the Marvel universe is pretty old and could use some cosmic universe level dusting off IMO.

[Troynos]

Yeah, the events of #5 were stupid.

AvX has been a HUGE disappointment. Horrible art by John Romita jr (thank god Olivier Coipel takes over with #6) and the writing has been D-list with A-List talent.

Seriously, how can good writers like Jason Aaron, Matt Fraction, Ed Brubaker and Jonathan Hickman turn in this crap?

[Jay West]

Yeah, the events of #5 were stupid.

AvX has been a HUGE disappointment. Horrible art by John Romita jr (thank god Olivier Coipel takes over with #6) and the writing has been D-list with A-List talent.

Seriously, how can good writers like Jason Aaron, Matt Fraction, Ed Brubaker and Jonathan Hickman turn in this crap?

Yeah are these guys even writing it or is some intern?

[Star Saber]

#5 has been spoiled on Newsarama and wow am I not impressed. That particular scenerio is so obviously temporary and will have zero lasting ramifications. Marvel has to sell me on these events having game changing events and mattering otherwise it is not worth my time.

About the only thing that would get me into this series would be if the Marvel Universe would get some sort of mini Crisis/Update - which I think it needs. I don't want anything as radical as the New 52, but the Marvel universe is pretty old and could use some cosmic universe level dusting off IMO.

Thing is, when has Marvel really done anything so game changing? The most they've done is probably give people new costumes and temporary status quos. Even DC's Crisis eventually lost most if not all their changes (Barry came back and so did Supergirl (in some form or another), etc)

[chuck x goren]

Thing is, when has Marvel really done anything so game changing? The most they've done is probably give people new costumes and temporary status quos. Even DC's Crisis eventually lost most if not all their changes (Barry came back and so did Supergirl (in some form or another), etc)

"Civil War" was probably the closest thing they got to game-changing. But even at the start, you knew the rift was going to be temporary. They did drag it out for about 3 years, though.

I'm right with Troynos on my overall opinions of "Avengers vs. X-men" so far. The initial Cyclops vs. Cap discussion didn't feel like something you'd go to war for.

I think they also blew it with the ending of issue 1 and beginning of issue 2. At the end of #1, the Avengers are seen jumping out of the helicarrier onto Utopia, attacking the X-men. Yet at the beginning of issue 2, they're all back inside the helicarrier and it's the X-men who start the fight by attacking the Avengers.

Was there some sort of explanation for this hiccup in one of the crossovers?

One element that is somewhat intriguing to me is the retconned stuff with K'un Lun and the Phoenix, over in "New Avengers". I feel like that could've been a "main event" in and of itself, instead of being shoe-horned into "Avengers vs. X-men".

[Jay West]

"Civil War" was probably the closest thing they got to game-changing. But even at the start, you knew the rift was going to be temporary. They did drag it out for about 3 years, though.

I'm right with Troynos on my overall opinions of "Avengers vs. X-men" so far. The initial Cyclops vs. Cap discussion didn't feel like something you'd go to war for.

I think they also blew it with the ending of issue 1 and beginning of issue 2. At the end of #1, the Avengers are seen jumping out of the helicarrier onto Utopia, attacking the X-men. Yet at the beginning of issue 2, they're all back inside the helicarrier and it's the X-men who start the fight by attacking the Avengers.

Was there some sort of explanation for this hiccup in one of the crossovers?

One element that is somewhat intriguing to me is the retconned stuff with K'un Lun and the Phoenix, over in "New Avengers". I feel like that could've been a "main event" in and of itself, instead of being shoe-horned into "Avengers vs. X-men".

I agree with all of this. Civil War while not great did ultimately lead to the one thing that seldom happens in comics: the Villian won. I think it lead straight to Norman's rise and eventually his takeover of SHIELD which essentially made him the most powerful man in the world at the time. It's about as close to a villian "winning" as we will ever see in a non alternate reality comic. I think it was cool Marvel did that.


@Troy
I didn't realize we were getting an art change. I may give the series another shot. Is anyone reading the AvX: VS (or whatever the title is?) series? Is it any good?

[Troynos]

VS IS DUMB!!!

Seriously, it is. It's a waste. Watch two characters go out it and a deus ex machina so one wins and the other can still save face.



No explanation giving for the hiccup and if you read Avengers you'll see a 3rd version of that first attack.

The tie-ins are bad. They seem independent of the main series and at times can conflict.

The K'un L'un stuff seems cool but where is it tying into the main AvX? In an upcoming issue of New Avengers, Hope goes to K'un L'un but when does that happen because in AvX #5 she missed the chance at being the avatar.

Weird and so bad.

[Jay West]

VS IS DUMB!!!

Seriously, it is. It's a waste. Watch two characters go out it and a deus ex machina so one wins and the other can still save face.



No explanation giving for the hiccup and if you read Avengers you'll see a 3rd version of that first attack.

The tie-ins are bad. They seem independent of the main series and at times can conflict.

The K'un L'un stuff seems cool but where is it tying into the main AvX? In an upcoming issue of New Avengers, Hope goes to K'un L'un but when does that happen because in AvX #5 she missed the chance at being the avatar.

Weird and so bad.

This is just such a weird crossover.

Marvel Guy 1: "Let's have a crossover!"
Marvel Guy 2: "I know...the Avengers are popular. The X-men used to be popular...let's have Avengers vs X-men!"

Marvel Guy 1: "Cool! What should the story be?"
Marvel Guy 2: "Who cares? It's Avengers vs. X-men - we'll sell tons of comics!"

I feel like this isn't that far off. This story did not evolve naturally from the current Marvel Universe. It's a marketing concept that no one really put much effort into figuring out the story (marketing concepts can work if someone actually tries to come up with a decent story ...case in point GI Joe). No one seems to be acting in character. The story is driving the characters instead of the characters driving the story. it's just sloppy IMO.

[pig iron grenadier]

It's awful, but I continue to buy it---I guess it's a car crash or train wreck mentality on my part.

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

I was going full out for this which I had not done form well anything in years.

By full out I mean tie ins and all.

I have stopped...I'm still getting the main book and the VS, but this event is flat out awful.

[Adamassc]

I'm only following the Avengers Academy comic, and that's mainly for Juston Seyfert.

[Jay West]

I'm only following the Avengers Academy comic, and that's mainly for Juston Seyfert.

I just recently discovered he was in the book. I'm going to have to try and figure out which issue he started in and pick those up. I loved his comic back in the day.

[Adamassc]

I just recently discovered he was in the book. I'm going to have to try and figure out which issue he started in and pick those up. I loved his comic back in the day.

He joined Avengers Academy in issue 20, during the Fear Itself arc.

[Troynos]

It's awful, but I continue to buy it---I guess it's a car crash or train wreck mentality on my part.

I'm only picking it up so can keep up with what the "results" are at the end.

[chuck x goren]

VS IS DUMB!!!
The K'un L'un stuff seems cool but where is it tying into the main AvX? In an upcoming issue of New Avengers, Hope goes to K'un L'un but when does that happen because in AvX #5 she missed the chance at being the avatar.


I think the K'un L'un Phoenix stuff is a good example of something that's being shoehorned in. For it to be truly explored and fleshed out, it would need to be a main story on its own. I don't think an Iron Fist-centric crossover would work...so it's jammed into "Avengers vs. X-men" as a flashback/retcon.

Also, the stuff in "Avengers" with the Protector was another disappointment. The Avengers themselves acted like such wienies toward him and he was basically written-out of the team. So long, Protector, we barely knew ye.

[Adamassc]

Emma Frost's Phoenix costume makes her regular outfit look practical and the modest.

[Adamassc]

Seriously, I don't think she can even sit down in that thing.

[zedhatch]

Yeah, the events of #5 were stupid.

AvX has been a HUGE disappointment. Horrible art by John Romita jr (thank god Olivier Coipel takes over with #6) and the writing has been D-list with A-List talent.

Seriously, how can good writers like Jason Aaron, Matt Fraction, Ed Brubaker and Jonathan Hickman turn in this crap?

Gotta agree, I didn't even pick up #5 when I was in the comic shop last time.

Everything is forced and all the characters are not in character (just like Civil War), I had some hope with this one as the marketing machine had worked, the sites screaming "Finally a big event that pays off" got me, I admit it.

Back to the bronze and copper age, stuff was cooler. The old Avengers vs. X-men was ten times this story.

[Troynos]

There hasn't been a good event since Crisis.

[zedhatch]

I disagree, World War Hulk rocked.

[Troynos]

That was during my "out of comics" time.


AvX #6 was better then any other issue, but that's not saying much since it still wasn't good.

The actions of the President and Captain America felt forced.

[zedhatch]

I haven't picked that issue up yet, nor #5, but I am very not excited about both. I probably will just to be able to complain with an informed opinion at least, but really this one is just as weak as so many other event's it's sad.

I would recommend WWH though, straight forward premise, the main book covers the important factors (so you don't HAVE to pick up a dozen other books to keep up), great action, a couple of moments I question but overall well worth it.

[Troynos]

I can't believe Marvel thought this would be a good idea.

[zedhatch]

It worked once before, but that time they had actual writers for it ;-)

[Troynos]

And that's what keeps surprising me about this event:

Brian Bendis, Matt Fraction, Jonathan Hickman, Jason Aaron

That's not bad talent. Those are good writers (with exception of Bendis, lol).

And the writing is the worst part of this event.

[ndb]

And that's what keeps surprising me about this event:

Brian Bendis, Matt Fraction, Jonathan Hickman, Jason Aaron

That's not bad talent. Those are good writers (with exception of Bendis, lol).

And the writing is the worst part of this event.

Bendis did good on Ultimate Spiderman. What did Matt Faction write that was good?

[Troynos]

Bendis did good on Ultimate Spiderman. What did Matt Faction write that was good?

Iron Man, Uncanny X-Men, Casanova, Defenders, basically everything he's written.

[Jay West]

There hasn't been a good event since Crisis.

Most do fall flat. I did enjoy the heck out of Sinestro Corps War. Sort of Geoff Johns pinnacle for me. IMO he has never gotten back to that level.

[zedhatch]

And that's what keeps surprising me about this event:

Brian Bendis, Matt Fraction, Jonathan Hickman, Jason Aaron

That's not bad talent. Those are good writers (with exception of Bendis, lol).

And the writing is the worst part of this event.

I don't think I have read anything by Bendis I have liked since Avengers dissassembled, which was ok only on the level it shook up the statis quo (but after a bit that got cliche).

[zedhatch]

Most do fall flat. I did enjoy the heck out of Sinestro Corps War. Sort of Geoff Johns pinnacle for me. IMO he has never gotten back to that level.

You know for a bit there I wasn't even considering DC events, mostly because Marvel's are so glaring. DC has some epic fails too (infinite Crisis ranks up there) but overall they do well I think (Darkest Night, Sinestro War, ect).

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

Well I swear this is the end of this stuff for me...I pretty much have my few core books I normally buy and seriously every so often something like this sucks me and and I am disappointed...no more...my core books from here on and thats it.

G.I. Joe books
Transformers books
Thunderbolts
Anything Terry Moore


And I would say any of certain books that I used to collect...2099, Wildstorm books, 90's Marvel UK...but these revamp things generall suck...and they can kiss my ass with the new 52 Wildstorm books...they all suck.

[zedhatch]

I wouldn't say the new 52 suck, but I haven't picked them up because I feel they are pointless and not needed.

I am hard pressed to come up with a reason to recollect modern comics though, gave the Valiant rebirth a try, it took all the old elements that worked and sprinkled in modern ones that don't (dragging out the plot). I feel out of love with DC due to New 52, Marvel is so far off the track I feel I can't enjoy it anymore. What's left?

[ndb]

Iron Man, Uncanny X-Men, Casanova, Defenders, basically everything he's written.

Considering I haven't read those, I guess that's why I had never seen anything good out of him.

[Jay West]

Ok...so I didn't hate AvX #6. Art was tons better. Story was better too. We'll see.

[Lantern_Lad]

Buddy loaned me the series... tried reading it when I realized that I just don't care. At all. About ANY of the characters. Made it through the second book and gave it back.

[Troynos]

I wouldn't say the new 52 suck, but I haven't picked them up because I feel they are pointless and not needed.


Valiant is okay so far.

I'm having major issues with the New 52, and might even say it does suck. Most of the books are hard to follow. The art is okay but changes so often. It almost seems like 52 seperate series.

Ok...so I didn't hate AvX #6. Art was tons better. Story was better too. We'll see.

AvX #6 was alot better then #1-5, still not saying much though, lol.

Art was 1000x better.

[chuck x goren]

AvX#6 was a slight improvement. I liked how they played up the Iron Fist/Phoenix connection, a bit.

When you buy the hard copy, the free digital download also includes the extra "Infinite" comic. It's about Cyclops re-visiting the Blue Area of the Moon and wondering about his humanity. It's very Dr. Manhattan-ish.

Anudder thing that's been buggin' me: this whole "Return of the Phoenix" concept would've worked MUCH better... had Jean Grey not already returned about 25 years ago, then "died" about 5 years ago in a different story. They're playing this up as if she officially "died" on the Moon, hadn't returned, married Cyclops, then died again. I've read maybe two X-men books since 2001, so have they tried to explain this any better?

[Troynos]

They're also ignoring, to a point, the part about Rachel Grey/Summers (the daughter from the future) who was host to the Phoenix for a number of years and never had any issues with it.

They mention it in passing, but don't explore like they need to.

Jean couldn't host the Phoenix but Rachel could? Why?

[zedhatch]

I've been trying to figure out why the Pheniox is interested in Hope in the first place. She is adopted so she has no real connection to Jean or Rachel, as far as I know this is the first time the Phoniex latched on to someone out of the Grey family. There was a Phienox Endsong series but I think it tempearly latched on to Emma, but that was it.

Hope has no connection to Jean, no telepathic powers, so what gives. Just kind of seems "Oh let's give it to her" rather than following the patterns.

[Jay West]

They're also ignoring, to a point, the part about Rachel Grey/Summers (the daughter from the future) who was host to the Phoenix for a number of years and never had any issues with it.

They mention it in passing, but don't explore like they need to.

Jean couldn't host the Phoenix but Rachel could? Why?

I think the Jean thing is easily explained in that maybe she was channeling the complete Phoenix while Rachel was only channeling a portion. In fact I think someone somewhere tried to explain it as such. Not a great explanation, but it sorta works.

But I agree with you. The Phoenix has come and gone periodically since it was introduced. Rachel had it, Jean had it again didn't she?, it came back once or twice in those Stepford Cuckoos minis. What's the big deal?

I'm sure it has appeared more times than that. Just another example of why this mini doesn't make much sense.

[Jay West]

I've been trying to figure out why the Pheniox is interested in Hope in the first place. She is adopted so she has no real connection to Jean or Rachel, as far as I know this is the first time the Phoniex latched on to someone out of the Grey family. There was a Phienox Endsong series but I think it tempearly latched on to Emma, but that was it.

Hope has no connection to Jean, no telepathic powers, so what gives. Just kind of seems "Oh let's give it to her" rather than following the patterns.

The Phoenix has merged with several non-Greys. There is a fairly complete list at wikipedia. I think the easy answer or the one Marvel would give is that Jean and the Phoenix have had the most complete connection and by extension Grey's are ideal hosts due to their genetic connection to her.

[riot_control]

I think the Jean thing is easily explained in that maybe she was channeling the complete Phoenix while Rachel was only channeling a portion. In fact I think someone somewhere tried to explain it as such. Not a great explanation, but it sorta works.

But I agree with you. The Phoenix has come and gone periodically since it was introduced. Rachel had it, Jean had it again didn't she?, it came back once or twice in those Stepford Cuckoos minis. What's the big deal?

I'm sure it has appeared more times than that. Just another example of why this mini doesn't make much sense.

Or, maybe cause Hope is Jean re-incarnated? I wouldn't slip it past Marvel to throw in a twist like that. Hence, why Hope still hears the call of the Phoenix. I dunno...maybe pulling straws cause my Marvel knowledge pretty much stops at the 90's. :D

[Jay West]

Or, maybe cause Hope is Jean re-incarnated? I wouldn't slip it past Marvel to throw in a twist like that. Hence, why Hope still hears the call of the Phoenix. I dunno...maybe pulling straws cause my Marvel knowledge pretty much stops at the 90's. :D

That was the tease that Marvel played out when she was introduced as a baby several years ago. I am pretty sure marvel has out and out denied that Hope was Jean, but I wouldn't completely count it out.

[riot_control]

I hate the fact that it took 5 books to get where we are right now in this. There's so much fat on this steak, it could have easily been trimmed down.

I haven't followed any of the tie ins to the series...but who is the red-headed Iron Fist lady? Jean? LMFAO ;)

[Adamassc]

I hate the fact that it took 5 books to get where we are right now in this. There's so much fat on this steak, it could have easily been trimmed down.

I haven't followed any of the tie ins to the series...but who is the red-headed Iron Fist lady? Jean? LMFAO ;)

Pick up Avengers Academy. Emma Frost's Phoenix costume shows as much skin as the censors allow, and she's in the AA book for this month and next.

[Jay West]

I hate the fact that it took 5 books to get where we are right now in this. There's so much fat on this steak, it could have easily been trimmed down.

I haven't followed any of the tie ins to the series...but who is the red-headed Iron Fist lady? Jean? LMFAO ;)

You know i have those Iron Fist issues and haven't read them. I have no idea who she is. Right now I think she is supposed to be un connected to Hope or Jean.

[riot_control]

Anyone want to bet Jean comes back at the end? LOL

[zedhatch]

The Phoenix has merged with several non-Greys. There is a fairly complete list at wikipedia. I think the easy answer or the one Marvel would give is that Jean and the Phoenix have had the most complete connection and by extension Grey's are ideal hosts due to their genetic connection to her.

OK, that probably shows how long it's been since I read any of the X-Men books.

But yeah if it's been back that many times why the sudden avenger interest. Geez this gets more crappy the more I discuss it LOL.

[Jay West]

OK, that probably shows how long it's been since I read any of the X-Men books.

But yeah if it's been back that many times why the sudden avenger interest. Geez this gets more crappy the more I discuss it LOL.

Doesnt it LOL? The spin Marvel would try to use is that these other times we have just seen a portion of the Phoenix - this is the real deal . Of course those other appearances where supposed to be the real deal im sure (i havent read them all). But i bet that would be Marvel's spin.

[Troynos]

The red head Iron Fist in K'un L'un is supposedly an earlier avatar of the Phoenix on one of the earlier trips it made to Earth.

Her connection to Hope or Jean is unexplained, but chances are she'll end up being an ancestor of one of them.

[zedhatch]

Doesnt it LOL? The spin Marvel would try to use is that these other times we have just seen a portion of the Phoenix - this is the real deal . Of course those other appearances where supposed to be the real deal im sure (i havent read them all). But i bet that would be Marvel's spin.


Yeah, I know Endsong the Pheniox reserected Jean, I mean how much more "real deal" you need besides breaking into a grave, shooting 6 feet under in three seconds and returning a dead body in all white. I mean the mini sucked but still.


The red head Iron Fist in K'un L'un is supposedly an earlier avatar of the Phoenix on one of the earlier trips it made to Earth.

Her connection to Hope or Jean is unexplained, but chances are she'll end up being an ancestor of one of them.

I'm betting it's Jean resurrected (BOOOOO!) or Hope's unamed mother (Who I think is supposed to be dead, but could be a cover story). Also wasn't rachel sent to a pocket demention as well so it's possible she could be related to her as well.

I haven't read either issue so I am a bit behind.

Then again I keep losing track with Marvel continuity anyway.

[Adamassc]

Yeah, I know Endsong the Pheniox reserected Jean, I mean how much more "real deal" you need besides breaking into a grave, shooting 6 feet under in three seconds and returning a dead body in all white. I mean the mini sucked but still.



I'm betting it's Jean resurrected (BOOOOO!) or Hope's unamed mother (Who I think is supposed to be dead, but could be a cover story). Also wasn't rachel sent to a pocket demention as well so it's possible she could be related to her as well.

I haven't read either issue so I am a bit behind.

Then again I keep losing track with Marvel continuity anyway.

See, this is why I pick a series and stick with it. There's no way I could keep all these crossover things straight.

I read Ghost Rider. Blaze doesn't have to deal with any of this crap. Skrull invasion? Not in the southwest. Avengers versus X-men? Johnny don't care, he ain't either.

[zedhatch]

See, this is why I pick a series and stick with it. There's no way I could keep all these crossover things straight.

I read Ghost Rider. Blaze doesn't have to deal with any of this crap. Skrull invasion? Not in the southwest. Avengers versus X-men? Johnny don't care, he ain't either.

You know, I've tried that and as soon as I do something like "OPPS Jonny Blaze faces off against an enraged hulk when he returns to earth" or soemthing.

I hate all these crossovers though, I hate keeping or attempting to keep up with them, if you can't contain the story in one book don't bother.

[Jay West]

New titles coming out of the crossover:

Bendis on X-men featuring the original team as teenagers - they are time traveling

Remender on Uncanny Avengers - X-men/Avengers mash up title

Hickman on Avengers - Hickman doing Avengers

Also bunch of new costumes for characters: Sue Richard, Hulk (well he gets one), Spidey (maybe it is hard to tell), Iron Man (sort of looks like Rhodey's current IM suit), Thor etc

Newsarama.com : NEW, Updated MARVEL NOW! Info, More Series Details (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/marvel-now-reevolution-uncanny-avengers.html)

[Troynos]

Looking forward to Hickman on Avengers

The Uncanny Avengers seems a logical step after this crossover, combining the two teams.

The time travelign X-Men? UGH!!!

[Jay West]

Looking forward to Hickman on Avengers

The Uncanny Avengers seems a logical step after this crossover, combining the two teams.

The time travelign X-Men? UGH!!!

Yeah doesn't that X-men book sound horrible. In an interview today over at newsarama, Brevoort says it's going to drive the X stories for a while.

Hickman is writing both Avengers and New Avengers and between the two books we will get about 3 Avengers books each month from him.

Secret and Avengers Assembled are staying around.

Really interested in finding out about the Spider Books, the rest of the X-books, and the other Marvel books like Thunderbolts, Hulk, or Defenders.

[ndb]

Considering how jumbled the current X-Men books are? I'll take it. The new designs, I'm not so sure about.

[Troynos]

The X-Books aren't jumbled right now. They're actually pretty straight forward compared to how they've been in the past.

Nick Lowe is probably one of the better x-editors they've had in a long time.

[Jay West]

The X-Books aren't jumbled right now. They're actually pretty straight forward compared to how they've been in the past.

Nick Lowe is probably one of the better x-editors they've had in a long time.


I'd agree. There's a bunch of them, but they are fairly stand alone. Wolverine's solo, Wolverine and the X-men (Wolvey's school), Uncanny (Scott's heavy hitters on Utopia), New Mutants (classic New Mutants team), X-force (Black Ops team), X-men (sorta not necessary, but kinda X-men team up), Legacy (Rogue's squad), Deadpool's stuff, X-factor (Madrox's team). I think that is it. Except for Wolvey starring in 3 books (solo, and X-men, X-force) I think this stuff is pretty contained.

I think Uncanny is shutting its doors for a bit as part of Marvel Now (confirmed). Wolverine's solo will stick around. X-factor is staying (confirmed). I bet the Jean Grey school will be featured in some book if not just staying Wolverine and the X-men. Gambit is getting a book a little pre-Marvel Now so I am sure it stays around. Legacy and Plain
X-men are probably changing gears if not outright canceled, but sure to be replaced with something. It should be interesting.

[ndb]

I disagree with the jumbled X-Men. I got into comics after wathcing Wolverine and the X-men a little over a year ago. Do you have any idea how hard it was to start reading X-Men comics even with the Heroic Age? I started reading WATXM when I could finally find the trade. The rest were either too boring or had too tight of a story.

[Troynos]

That's not jumbled, that's just personal taste.

[Jmacq1]

That's not jumbled, that's just personal taste.

Actually it's not that they're jumbled, it's that the X-Books have such a HUGE cast that it's very hard to keep up, particularly if you either haven't read for a while or skipped books like "New X-Men/Academy X" or "Generation Hope" that introduced a whole new generation of characters to the mythos.

It's also frustrating that many of the old/classic characters seem to continually get sidelined in favor of characters like Danger or Dr. Nemesis (don't get me wrong...Doc N is awesome but he's hardly a classic X-character) and the continuing saga of how much Scott Summers and Emma Frost LOOOOOOOVE each other. Wolverine and the X-Men seemed to help with this, but then they piled on even more new characters so....yeah. Still, the X-Books for a couple years almost felt more like "The X-Club (the wacky group of scientists hanging around the X-Men) occasionally guest-starring the X-Men."

It's not the storylines that are jumbled, in other words. It's the characters.

[Troynos]

I can agree with that.

[zedhatch]

You know, just talking about X-men in general, I would love it if it was discovered Emma has been making Cyclops "love her" with her telepathy and the whole time and she was up to some evil scheame, that whole storyline has never ever set well with me.

[Jmacq1]

You know, just talking about X-men in general, I would love it if it was discovered Emma has been making Cyclops "love her" with her telepathy and the whole time and she was up to some evil scheame, that whole storyline has never ever set well with me.

Ehn, that ship has long since sailed, to the point where introducing some kind of "reversal" like that now would seem even more out of character for Emma than her doing it in the first place.

[zedhatch]

I don't think so, Emma was a bastard in her hellfire club days and could easily IMO be up to something given the right motive. She was incredibly manipulative and cunning. In fact I have always been surpized the X-Men have ever trusted her at all. But the motive would have to be good, that would sell it, something that would have had to of been long term, not coming up with anything at the moment, but it's been done and can be done again I think.

[CityStrike]

Iron Man, Uncanny X-Men, Casanova, Defenders, basically everything he's written.


Fraction's Uncanny was pretty bad IMO, his IM is good and I heard his Iron Fist w Bru was great.

[Troynos]

Fractions Uncanny wasn't bad. Bit better then Gillens.

[Jmacq1]

I don't think so, Emma was a bastard in her hellfire club days and could easily IMO be up to something given the right motive. She was incredibly manipulative and cunning. In fact I have always been surpized the X-Men have ever trusted her at all. But the motive would have to be good, that would sell it, something that would have had to of been long term, not coming up with anything at the moment, but it's been done and can be done again I think.

The only way it works is if you have Emma deluding HERSELF. We've had internal dialogue and perspective from Emma that reinforces her love for and loyalty to Scott multiple times over.

That's why it doesn't really work. Readers would cry foul because at this point it would be out of character for her.

[zedhatch]

Of course that contradicts her internal dialouge from her time in the Hellfire Club as well, it works both ways.

Easy explaination is to say that, with other telepaths around (Professor X, Psylocke, ect) her surface thoughts reflected her plans, I know I have heard Professor X say that even a telepath has trouble masking thier surface thoughts and more than once telepaths have been fooled by characters masking thier real thoughts with surface thoughts.

Never take anything a face value, especially from the White Queen.

EDIT: Let's also not forget that at one point (Around GenX #25 or so) Emma had stated she spent a while in a mental institution, apparently this was retconed with no real explaination to why Emma said that, could be she is crazy and really IS deluding herself.

She did capture and personally tortured Storm, Colossus, Wolverine and Jean, she also took over Storm's body, manipulated Magneto into letting the New Mutants join her acadamy and pitted her Hellions against the New Mutants, and switched minds with Iceman just to name a few of her deeds. I am constantly surprized the X-Men ever trusted her at all.

And let's face it, the way Emma started things up with Scott, well it was pretty manipulative and wrong.

Also note that Scott is acting very much out of character in A vs. X, could there be a connection.

In Astonishing X-Men she let Scott "die" to teach Danger a lesson, not love IMO. She gambled Scott would be resurected, but she couldn't have known for 100% certainty.

There are ton of things that have never added up with Emma IMO.

[Troynos]

So in lastest issue, Namor "fell" (knocked down and almost knocked out) and loses the Phoenix power. How did he fall? He was defeated, he wasn't killed.

Confused.

[Jmacq1]

Of course that contradicts her internal dialouge from her time in the Hellfire Club as well, it works both ways.

Easy explaination is to say that, with other telepaths around (Professor X, Psylocke, ect) her surface thoughts reflected her plans, I know I have heard Professor X say that even a telepath has trouble masking thier surface thoughts and more than once telepaths have been fooled by characters masking thier real thoughts with surface thoughts.

Never take anything a face value, especially from the White Queen.

EDIT: Let's also not forget that at one point (Around GenX #25 or so) Emma had stated she spent a while in a mental institution, apparently this was retconed with no real explaination to why Emma said that, could be she is crazy and really IS deluding herself.

She did capture and personally tortured Storm, Colossus, Wolverine and Jean, she also took over Storm's body, manipulated Magneto into letting the New Mutants join her acadamy and pitted her Hellions against the New Mutants, and switched minds with Iceman just to name a few of her deeds. I am constantly surprized the X-Men ever trusted her at all.

And let's face it, the way Emma started things up with Scott, well it was pretty manipulative and wrong.

Also note that Scott is acting very much out of character in A vs. X, could there be a connection.

In Astonishing X-Men she let Scott "die" to teach Danger a lesson, not love IMO. She gambled Scott would be resurected, but she couldn't have known for 100% certainty.

There are ton of things that have never added up with Emma IMO.

You're reaching. Waaaaaaay reaching, unless you mean to tell me Emma Frost is by her lonesome powerful enough to hide her true feelings from a Phoenix-empowered Jean Grey...to which I would of course say "bullshit."

Oh, and Scott is only acting "out of character" for A vs X if you ignore the last several years of his character development (into a mega control-freak jerk/dictator) and ignore that the Phoenix seems to be affecting everyone who's possessed by it's behavior.

So in lastest issue, Namor "fell" (knocked down and almost knocked out) and loses the Phoenix power. How did he fall? He was defeated, he wasn't killed.

Confused.

Scarlet Witch did....something. It's not entirely clear, but it seems to be what caused Namor's defeat and may or may not have caused the Phoenix to jump ship. It seems the phenomenon is going to hold true, though, since it looks like the (now) Phoenix Four are going to be playing "Highlander" for the next few weeks.

[zedhatch]

You're reaching. Waaaaaaay reaching, unless you mean to tell me Emma Frost is by her lonesome powerful enough to hide her true feelings from a Phoenix-empowered Jean Grey...to which I would of course say "bullshit."

Well if you go the crazy route (as suggested in Gen X), then it's simple, sure Jean could have seen emma was nuts, if she looked for that, but how do you look for something if you don't realize it's there.

And who is to say Phenoix didn't lie to her just to get her to leave scott, tons of variables here. Jean could have even lied to herself (there is a ton of things that were going on with Jeanie at the time).

As for WAAAY reaching, I actually think it's reaching to suggest Emma has changed her tune so easily.

Oh, and Scott is only acting "out of character" for A vs X if you ignore the last several years of his character development (into a mega control-freak jerk/dictator) and ignore that the Phoenix seems to be affecting everyone who's possessed by it's behavior.

Yes and what was going on during that development? Who was Scott with? EMMA!!!! Emma was entering his mind while he was married to Jean to begin with, is it really that big a stretch to think Emma might tug Scott in another direction as well? With her history (That is seeming to be easily ignored here as no one is addressing it) it really isn't.

[Jmacq1]

Well if you go the crazy route (as suggested in Gen X), then it's simple, sure Jean could have seen emma was nuts, if she looked for that, but how do you look for something if you don't realize it's there.

And who is to say Phenoix didn't lie to her just to get her to leave scott, tons of variables here. Jean could have even lied to herself (there is a ton of things that were going on with Jeanie at the time).

As for WAAAY reaching, I actually think it's reaching to suggest Emma has changed her tune so easily.

Right, because basically 20 years of character development is "so easily" (given that the "start of the road" for Emma was basically the death of the Hellions in 1991). Please.

Oh, and in case you forgot? Jean/Phoenix is basically responsible for Scott and Emma being together, not "trying to get them apart." You're cobbling together ridiculous and convoluted fanon theories because your comics aren't the same as when you were a teen/kid. I get it. Comic readers don't like change and you want your Claremont/Byrne era back, but stop pretending like there hasn't been 20 years since then of, y'know, stuff happening to change characters.

Yes and what was going on during that development? Who was Scott with? EMMA!!!! Emma was entering his mind while he was married to Jean to begin with, is it really that big a stretch to think Emma might tug Scott in another direction as well? With her history (That is seeming to be easily ignored here as no one is addressing it) it really isn't.

You don't have the right to accuse anyone of ignoring anything given that you're the one blatantly ignoring the last 20 years of Emma Frost's character development in favor of what would undoubtedly be considered a bullshit retcon on par with "Sins Past" to anyone that's a current reader of the X-Titles. ("No really, she was shielding her thoughts from a whole bunch of telepaths way more powerful (and in at least two cases more skilled) than her for YEARS just to mess with Scott for...no particular reason despite a vast multitude of opportunities to royally screw him over? Just like she gave him all her money to...uhm...really hurt him. Yeah, that's the ticket! Cause she's totally crazy man, I know it based on an contextless statement from one comic book I read!")

[zedhatch]

Right, because basically 20 years of character development is "so easily" (given that the "start of the road" for Emma was basically the death of the Hellions in 1991). Please.

Oh, and in case you forgot? Jean/Phoenix is basically responsible for Scott and Emma being together, not "trying to get them apart." You're cobbling together ridiculous and convoluted fanon theories because your comics aren't the same as when you were a teen/kid. I get it. Comic readers don't like change and you want your Claremont/Byrne era back, but stop pretending like there hasn't been 20 years since then of, y'know, stuff happening to change characters.

You know two things about me, Jack and shit, and have no business whatsoever trying to get into my views on comics.

Truth is you probably are new yourself and never read those stories to see what kind of Bitch she was, while the X-men have a rich history of letting the bad guys join up for various reasons, Emma's was the weakest and also the least tramatic for her. It was glossed over pure and simple. Go read Rouge's induction into the X-Men and compare.

Jean and Scotts issues (like any married couple) were Jean and Scott's and Emma had no business butting her head in, especially not on the level that she did. Tow wrongs don't make a right.

And since the X-Franchise has pretty well fallen in the world of comic sales your agurement about the present being better is kind of weak.

You don't have the right to accuse anyone of ignoring anything given that you're the one blatantly ignoring the last 20 years of Emma Frost's character development in favor of what would undoubtedly be considered a bullshit retcon on par with "Sins Past" to anyone that's a current reader of the X-Titles. ("No really, she was shielding her thoughts from a whole bunch of telepaths way more powerful (and in at least two cases more skilled) than her for YEARS just to mess with Scott for...no particular reason despite a vast multitude of opportunities to royally screw him over? Just like she gave him all her money to...uhm...really hurt him. Yeah, that's the ticket! Cause she's totally crazy man, I know it based on an contextless statement from one comic book I read!")


Ok fine, explain her behavior from the previous 20 years and why it should be ignored.

Oh and BTW The Hellions are slated to come back in August, like everyone in comics they couldn't stay dead, kind of nullifies the whole deal that Fitroy (Talk about a lame character that I'm glad isn't around-yikes) did.

I mean really you have yet to address anything I said earlier about her character (WHICH BTW included some of the 20 years of "development" you were speaking of and yet you ignore that two). Seriously it was a laundry list of WTF Emma moments. You are so gung ho for her then explain all that crap? Maybe it's you who are afraid of change. Better yet why not just tell everyone why you like her since the arguements you have presented thus far have ths subtance of Ghost Hunters. Seriously present something besides "No 'it's not." Some refernece some situation beyond "Oh her internal dialouge says she's good' Like there has never been a character in comics to fake that one, nope never happens. /sarcasim

[Jmacq1]

You know two things about me, Jack and shit, and have no business whatsoever trying to get into my views on comics.

You put your views on comics into a public forum, you give everyone there a right to "get into them." If you don't like it? Find another place to talk about comics, but you'll be hard pressed to find one where people DON'T challenge your opinions.

Truth is you probably are new yourself and never read those stories to see what kind of Bitch she was, while the X-men have a rich history of letting the bad guys join up for various reasons, Emma's was the weakest and also the least tramatic for her. It was glossed over pure and simple. Go read Rouge's induction into the X-Men and compare.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm willing to bet I've been reading just as long, if not longer than you. I do quite easily remember when Emma Frost was a bitch. I also remember that like most villains of that time period not named "Magneto" she was pretty much a complete cipher with no deeper characterization beyond "manipulative bitch."

I also remember when Magneto's characterization was little more than a bargain-basement Dr. Doom, megalomaniacal rants and all. Then what happened? Oh right...a few decades of character development.

Jean and Scotts issues (like any married couple) were Jean and Scott's and Emma had no business butting her head in, especially not on the level that she did. Tow wrongs don't make a right.

I don't have the slightest freaking clue what you're going off about here. I never said anything about Emma and Scott's affair being morally correct. Then again, if you're getting pissy about a fictional character's moral decisions...you may need to talk to Grant Morrison about that. He's the one that wrote it. Fictional characters don't exactly have their own agency. He's also the one that wrote Jean "nudging" them together when Scott was ready to drop the relationship altogether.

And since the X-Franchise has pretty well fallen in the world of comic sales your agurement about the present being better is kind of weak.

I didn't say jack or shit about the present being "better." All I'm pointing out is that Emma Frost's current characterization is more than justified by 20 years of back story in-between "manipulative evil bitch" and now. Sure, like any comic character you can nit-pick certain outliers, but overall the storytelling and character arc has been consistent. That's what you refuse to admit because you're clinging to an interpretation of the character that's no longer valid due to the character changing over the course of many years of writing.

Oh and news flash: ALL comic sales are drastically lower than they were in our youth. Not just an affliction of the X-Men, I'm afraid. That, and sales have jack and shit to do with quality.

Ok fine, explain her behavior from the previous 20 years and why it should be ignored.

Because a double-handful of appearances with little in the way of deeper characterization or insight into motivation is pretty weak compared to 20 years of being a "main character" with pretty intensive amounts of both.

Otherwise Magneto should still be a raving B-List Dr. Doom wannabe.

Oh and BTW The Hellions are slated to come back in August, like everyone in comics they couldn't stay dead, kind of nullifies the whole deal that Fitroy (Talk about a lame character that I'm glad isn't around-yikes) did.

They came back several months ago, actually. But if you'd actually read the story (or even minimally researched it) you'd understand that there's a wee bit more to it than that.

That, and since then she's pretty much had ANOTHER entire class of mutants killed off thanks to the whole "Decimation" thing.

I mean really you have yet to address anything I said earlier about her character (WHICH BTW included some of the 20 years of "development" you were speaking of and yet you ignore that two). Seriously it was a laundry list of WTF Emma moments. You are so gung ho for her then explain all that crap? Maybe it's you who are afraid of change. Better yet why not just tell everyone why you like her since the arguements you have presented thus far have ths subtance of Ghost Hunters. Seriously present something besides "No 'it's not." Some refernece some situation beyond "Oh her internal dialouge says she's good' Like there has never been a character in comics to fake that one, nope never happens. /sarcasim

There have been few, if any comic characters with the degree of detail into their internal thoughts that are then shown to be completely the opposite. This isn't some "surface thoughts" thing. This is "omnipresent/semi-omnisicient narrator" in situations where her loyalties and morality are specifically being addressed to no one but herself. No one to hide from, no one to hold her accountable, but you're hinging the argument on "she's crazy!" based on one statement that you apparently don't know the context for (Hint: She wasn't crazy).

In all truth, I'm perfectly indifferent as to Emma Frost as a character, and I haven't regularly read the X-Books in over 10 years. I just don't have any problem pointing out that your hypothesis is weak, and utterly inconsistent with the storytelling of the past 20 years. Could Marvel do it? Sure. And they'd rapidly be accused of shitty writing if they did. That's all I'm pointing out, whether you want to accept it or not.

So take a chill pill and go read some comics that you genuinely enjoy. It'll make for a more relaxing life.

[zedhatch]

You put your views on comics into a public forum, you give everyone there a right to "get into them." If you don't like it? Find another place to talk about comics, but you'll be hard pressed to find one where people DON'T challenge your opinions.

Just pointing out you are going off on baseless assumptions,

Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm willing to bet I've been reading just as long, if not longer than you. I do quite easily remember when Emma Frost was a bitch. I also remember that like most villains of that time period not named "Magneto" she was pretty much a complete cipher with no deeper characterization beyond "manipulative bitch."

Really, I bought Giant Sized X-Men #1 off the newsstands.

I also remember when Magneto's characterization was little more than a bargain-basement Dr. Doom, megalomaniacal rants and all. Then what happened? Oh right...a few decades of character development.

Really, do tell us your comix expertise.


I don't have the slightest freaking clue what you're going off about here. I never said anything about Emma and Scott's affair being morally correct. Then again, if you're getting pissy about a fictional character's moral decisions...you may need to talk to Grant Morrison about that. He's the one that wrote it. Fictional characters don't exactly have their own agency. He's also the one that wrote Jean "nudging" them together when Scott was ready to drop the relationship altogether.

UM you were talking about Emma's true feelings and I was pointing out how manipulative she was in getting into the relatioship which is the entire point of what we are talking about.

And your the one getting "pissy" cause I ain't hip to your jive talk (yes that was a joke on slang)

I didn't say jack or shit about the present being "better." All I'm pointing out is that Emma Frost's current characterization is more than justified by 20 years of back story in-between "manipulative evil bitch" and now. Sure, like any comic character you can nit-pick certain outliers, but overall the storytelling and character arc has been consistent. That's what you refuse to admit because you're clinging to an interpretation of the character that's no longer valid due to the character changing over the course of many years of writing.

OK once again what is the progression? I'm not seeing it, in fact if anything the progression has lead to the other direction.

Oh and news flash: ALL comic sales are drastically lower than they were in our youth. Not just an affliction of the X-Men, I'm afraid. That, and sales have jack and shit to do with quality.

Yes, but X-Men used to be the top of the food chain, that hasn't been the case for some time now that's what I was talking about.

On quality, yeah there are enough converstations about that all over.


Because a double-handful of appearances with little in the way of deeper characterization or insight into motivation is pretty weak compared to 20 years of being a "main character" with pretty intensive amounts of both.

Otherwise Magneto should still be a raving B-List Dr. Doom wannabe.

Stan Lee begs to differ refering to his appearence in X-men #1(and this was just 30 seconds of research)

Stan Lee elaborated that he "did not think of Magneto as a bad guy. He just wanted to strike back at the people who were so bigoted and racist... he was trying to defend the mutants, and because society was not treating them fairly he was going to teach society a lesson. He was a danger of course


They came back several months ago, actually. But if you'd actually read the story (or even minimally researched it) you'd understand that there's a wee bit more to it than that.

That, and since then she's pretty much had ANOTHER entire class of mutants killed off thanks to the whole "Decimation" thing.

Sorry they were c-list characters on thier best day. But you know on that research thing...

/QUOTE]There have been few, if any comic characters with the degree of detail into their internal thoughts that are then shown to be completely the opposite. This isn't some "surface thoughts" thing. This is "omnipresent/semi-omnisicient narrator" in situations where her loyalties and morality are specifically being addressed to no one but herself. No one to hide from, no one to hold her accountable, but you're hinging the argument on "she's crazy!" based on one statement that you apparently don't know the context for (Hint: She wasn't crazy).[/QUOTE]

yes because Emma's midn has never betrayed her, Like when Shaw, Nova and Perfection turned out to be projections from her mind. Yes this was RIGHT before she appeared to Scott as Jean in his mind. Yes her mind has no issues what so ever. (3 seconds of research will find you that.

In all truth, I'm perfectly indifferent as to Emma Frost as a character, and I haven't regularly read the X-Books in over 10 years. I just don't have any problem pointing out that your hypothesis is weak, and utterly inconsistent with the storytelling of the past 20 years.

Wait, what? You mean you are ragging me about character and you HAVEN'T even read what I am talking about, you are blasting me for not reading and then admit yourself you haven't, so how can you KNOW that her character works in this situation if you haven't even read what I am talking about? this is clearly why you haven't adressed specific issues, you never even knew about it because you never read it.

It really takes a ton of nerve to blast me for not knowing the Hellions had returned yet and then admit you haven't read X-men in 10 years especailly after going off about 20 years of characterization.

Dude just quit, really. Find a debate you know something about

Could Marvel do it? Sure. And they'd rapidly be accused of shitty writing if they did. That's all I'm pointing out, whether you want to accept it or not.

Newsflash, Marvel has been accused of shitty writing for the past decade, so nothing new there.

So take a chill pill and go read some comics that you genuinely enjoy. It'll make for a more relaxing life.


From a guy who spends so much pissy energy going off about something he has no clue about-forget it. By your own admission you just dismissed everything you said earlier. Go and actually read before you open your mouth again.

EDIT: You also seemed to have forgotten (of maybe you didn't read it) that Jean when she said that Emma's feelings were genuine that Jean was also trying to avoid a dystopian alternate reality that would occur if Scott didn't run the school with Emma by his side, ever occur to you that she might have said that to try to keep certain doon from falling on the ones she loved. Probably not.

Perfection was the only other one to acknowledge the feelings, and she was a projection of Emma's mind.

Let's also not forget the Cuckoos are clones of Emma and seem to have a not so good grip on sanity.

[Jmacq1]

Just pointing out you are going off on baseless assumptions,

Really, I bought Giant Sized X-Men #1 off the newsstands.

OK, you've read longer than I have, but that hardly precludes me from having read pretty much all the same issues. I'd think someone as old as you should probably be more mature than getting apoplectic over a discussion about comic books on a message board, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Really, do tell us your comix expertise.

32 years of reading them? How is this relevant to my statement about Magneto, again?

UM you were talking about Emma's true feelings and I was pointing out how manipulative she was in getting into the relatioship which is the entire point of what we are talking about.

And your the one getting "pissy" cause I ain't hip to your jive talk (yes that was a joke on slang)

Right. You're so worked up you can't type coherently but I'm the one getting "pissy." Incidentally Emma never stopped being manipulative, but being manipulative does not preclude her feelings for Scott being genuine or her loyalty to the X-Men being true.

OK once again what is the progression? I'm not seeing it, in fact if anything the progression has lead to the other direction.

If you're not seeing it, you're blind. Go buy and read 20 years of backissues, because it's really not my job to break it down for you.

Stan Lee begs to differ refering to his appearence in X-men #1(and this was just 30 seconds of research)

And when exactly did that quote get made? I suspect it was probably many, many years after Claremont's work on the character.

He probably shouldn't have written Magneto as a raving megalomaniac if that wasn't what he intended him to be...but I guess that was beyond Stan Lee's capability? Though in truth it was more likely a Comics Code Authority issue where the bad guys had to seem unequivocally "bad." Stan may have "intended" whatever he said, but the execution gave no sign of that, and in fact was so markedly different from his later characterization and behavior that they did in fact provide a retcon to explain why he seemed so insane in the Silver Age.

yes because Emma's midn has never betrayed her, Like when Shaw, Nova and Perfection turned out to be projections from her mind. Yes this was RIGHT before she appeared to Scott as Jean in his mind. Yes her mind has no issues what so ever. (3 seconds of research will find you that.

If you're going to assume that any character whose "mind has betrayed them" is suspect to a complete reversal of 20 years of storytelling at a moments' notice, then congratulations, just about every character in the Marvel Universe can now be completely rewritten on a dime. Emma Frost is hardly unique in that regard, and in particular nearly every telepath among the X-Men has suffered from similar afflictions at one time or another.

Of course the writers can choose to reverse characterization on a dime if the want, but that doesn't make for good or consistent storytelling.

Wait, what? You mean you are ragging me about character and you HAVEN'T even read what I am talking about, you are blasting me for not reading and then admit yourself you haven't, so how can you KNOW that her character works in this situation if you haven't even read what I am talking about? this is clearly why you haven't adressed specific issues, you never even knew about it because you never read it.

It really takes a ton of nerve to blast me for not knowing the Hellions had returned yet and then admit you haven't read X-men in 10 years especailly after going off about 20 years of characterization.

You know that bit about ASSumptions you were so keen on back there? Try looking up a "Marvel Digital Comics Subscription." Loooooots of stuff to read there. But if you'd like me to clarify: I haven't bought monthly X-Men comics on a regular basis in over ten years. This hardly rules out the possibility of me reading said issues, either in trade paperback, digital format, or borrowed from friends that HAVE kept regularly buying comics. Welcome to the 21st Century, where multiple means of "keeping up" exist.

Newsflash, Marvel has been accused of shitty writing for the past decade, so nothing new there.

So you, who just one post ago said "two wrongs don't make a right" now want to compile shitty writing with more shitty writing?

From a guy who spends so much pissy energy going off about something he has no clue about-forget it. By your own admission you just dismissed everything you said earlier. Go and actually read before you open your mouth again.

See above. Try not to get your blood pressure so high. At your age that could be dangerous.

You also seemed to have forgotten (of maybe you didn't read it) that Jean when she said that Emma's feelings were genuine that Jean was also trying to avoid a dystopian alternate reality that would occur if Scott didn't run the school with Emma by his side, ever occur to you that she might have said that to try to keep certain doon from falling on the ones she loved. Probably not.

YOU seem to have forgotten that Jean wasn't "talking" to anyone but HERSELF when she made that move. It was an entirely subconscious "push" where Scott was concerned. So is it your position then that a Phoenix-power at full potential Jean Grey was simply lying to herself (and by proxy, the reader) to set up a massive con-job on the readers to be executed by a different writer altogether over ten years later?

Let's also not forget the Cuckoos are clones of Emma and seem to have a not so good grip on sanity.

Right, because it's not like The Cuckoos mental and emotional problems have anything to do with their nigh-constantly intertwined minds or test-tube origins as opposed to simply being cast from Emma's genetic material.

Anyway, it's all probably rather moot anyway, as I suspect either Scott, Emma, or both will be dead by the end of this crossover.

[zedhatch]

Right. You're so worked up you can't type coherently but I'm the one getting "pissy." Incidentally Emma never stopped being manipulative, but being manipulative does not preclude her feelings for Scott being genuine or her loyalty to the X-Men being true.

Actually I'm dyslexic and don't go through and edit every single post I make on an informal message board.

Talk about ASSumption.

If you're not seeing it, you're blind. Go buy and read 20 years of backissues, because it's really not my job to break it down for you.

And yet you admit you haven't read it (more on that later).


And when exactly did that quote get made? I suspect it was probably many, many years after Claremont's work on the character.

He probably shouldn't have written Magneto as a raving megalomaniac if that wasn't what he intended him to be...but I guess that was beyond Stan Lee's capability? Though in truth it was more likely a Comics Code Authority issue where the bad guys had to seem unequivocally "bad." Stan may have "intended" whatever he said, but the execution gave no sign of that, and in fact was so markedly different from his later characterization and behavior that they did in fact provide a retcon to explain why he seemed so insane in the Silver Age.

OK you know better than Stan Lee, got it.

If you're going to assume that any character whose "mind has betrayed them" is suspect to a complete reversal of 20 years of storytelling at a moments' notice, then congratulations, just about every character in the Marvel Universe can now be completely rewritten on a dime. Emma Frost is hardly unique in that regard, and in particular nearly every telepath among the X-Men has suffered from similar afflictions at one time or another.

True, but there are often reprecustions from those moments, Emma still has yet to suffer any.

You know that bit about ASSumptions you were so keen on back there? Try looking up a "Marvel Digital Comics Subscription." Loooooots of stuff to read there. But if you'd like me to clarify: I haven't bought monthly X-Men comics on a regular basis in over ten years. This hardly rules out the possibility of me reading said issues, either in trade paperback, digital format, or borrowed from friends that HAVE kept regularly buying comics. Welcome to the 21st Century, where multiple means of "keeping up" exist.

I assumed nothing, your own quote:


and I haven't regularly read the X-Books in over 10 years.

You didn't say you hadn't picked them up as you claim, you words were "READ" which yes does proclude you from having an informed opinion.

All your "Oh I mean digital comics ect" is just back peddling, You said it and there it is.

See above. Try not to get your blood pressure so high. At your age that could be dangerous.

Yeah and I'm the one getting pissy, you can't even stay on topic without a veiled insult.

And just FYI, nothing, and I mean NOTHING you have said here has even had the remotest effect on my emotional state, well besides that backpeddling which did produce some laughter.


YOU seem to have forgotten that Jean wasn't "talking" to anyone but HERSELF when she made that move. It was an entirely subconscious "push" where Scott was concerned. So is it your position then that a Phoenix-power at full potential Jean Grey was simply lying to herself (and by proxy, the reader) to set up a massive con-job on the readers to be executed by a different writer altogether over ten years later?

Finally you address something, brilliant. However she gave no indicators of having scanned Emma to see if the feelings were genine, just stated they were.

Also (as stated on Marvel's Wiki Page)

and created a new future by pushing Scott to stay with Emma Frost and continue the Xavier Institute.

So even Marvel admits Scott and Emma are a forced relationship. Granted wiki is not always the best place to get info, but Marvel does do a good job of keeping up with things in thiers.

Right, because it's not like The Cuckoos mental and emotional problems have anything to do with their nigh-constantly intertwined minds or test-tube origins as opposed to simply being cast from Emma's genetic material.


It is a widely known fact that mental disorders can be passed on geneticly. In a clone this is almost a certainty as there are no other genetics working within the clone besides the donor. But in fairness not much was ever addressed to thier mental state, which is exactly my point.

Anyway, it's all probably rather moot anyway, as I suspect either Scott, Emma, or both will be dead by the end of this crossover.



There's a promo image of scott in shackles, so his death doesn't seem to be apparent, Emma, I can only hope.

[Jmacq1]

OK you know better than Stan Lee, got it.

No, I recognize that Stan Lee has been a salesman and wordsmith virtually his entire life. He's hardly a paragon of virtue and he's hardly incapable of changing his tune to keep on the side of the audience he's speaking to, or to claim credit for work that isn't always entirely his.

Have YOU read the Silver Age X-Men comics? Do you honestly find Magneto's portrayal in them to be that of a sympathetic and well-reasoned man? The work speaks for itself. Once again, the characterization was so divergent from what came later that they had to retcon in a "your power makes you crazy" flaw for Magneto to explain it decades after the fact..

True, but there are often reprecustions from those moments, Emma still has yet to suffer any.

And what "repercussions" are you suggesting should occur?

Incidentally, what "repercussions" did Charles Xavier suffer after that whole "Onslaught" mess? Oh right...none, really. He only got hit with repercussions after the Deadly Genesis retcon that had nothing to do with Onslaught whatsoever.

I assumed nothing, your own quote:

You didn't say you hadn't picked them up as you claim, you words were "READ" which yes does proclude you from having an informed opinion.

All your "Oh I mean digital comics ect" is just back peddling, You said it and there it is.

Heh, you're really going to play that game? Seriously? The internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, and saying "La la la I can't hear you?" Very mature.

Whatever, You want to feel superior in your comic book knowledge and google-fu on Comic-book topics? Have it it. I'm sure it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to change it.

It's not even a bad opinion, just one that flies in the face of what's been well-established over the last twenty years (which would make implementing it shitty writing), but God forbid someone point that out.

[zedhatch]

No, I recognize that Stan Lee has been a salesman and wordsmith virtually his entire life. He's hardly a paragon of virtue and he's hardly incapable of changing his tune to keep on the side of the audience he's speaking to, or to claim credit for work that isn't always entirely his.

If you say so, I mean he's the trillionare is all I'm saying.

Have YOU read the Silver Age X-Men comics? Do you honestly find Magneto's portrayal in them to be that of a sympathetic and well-reasoned man? The work speaks for itself. Once again, the characterization was so divergent from what came later that they had to retcon in a "your power makes you crazy" flaw for Magneto to explain it decades after the fact..

Magneto is NOT a sympathetic well reasoned man, that's the point.



And what "repercussions" are you suggesting should occur?

Incidentally, what "repercussions" did Charles Xavier suffer after that whole "Onslaught" mess? Oh right...none, really. He only got hit with repercussions after the Deadly Genesis retcon that had nothing to do with Onslaught whatsoever.

Of course onslaught could be blamed on Magneto since Onslaught was an amalgamation of the two, oh wait Mag's is a well reasoned man, I forgot

But also it seems Xavier has paid plenty for sins past if you think about it.


Heh, you're really going to play that game? Seriously? The internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, and saying "La la la I can't hear you?" Very mature.

You mean going on exactly what you wrote? If you didn't mean it maybe you shouldn't have said it.

Sorry it upset you to have that pointed out too, but I guess that's life.

Whatever, You want to feel superior in your comic book knowledge and google-fu on Comic-book topics? Have it it. I'm sure it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

HAHA projecting much.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to change it.

Then why are wasting so much time and energy trying to.

It's not even a bad opinion, just one that flies in the face of what's been well-established over the last twenty years (which would make implementing it shitty writing), but God forbid someone point that out.


And I am pointing out it actually fits with much of what has been established.

The Hellfire club brought Emma's loyalties into question right off (Where those the mental projections? There is some abiguity to that one, which actually even solidifys the point more), and in the process every questionable action is brought into a WTF moment. is much of that just shitty writing, probably, but at the same time to try and say that everything is all warm and fuzzy with Emma is simple denial of reality. Girl got some major issues and those issues seem to have effected the team as a whole.

In addtion, there is scott himself (who has been left out of this convo mostly and let's not forget his part in his failed marrage, especially after that bonding with Apoc thing). His behavior is over the top manic, he is pushing away long time friends and allies (WOlverine, Beast, ect) and allying himself with long time enemies (Magneto), Lef tthe school he believed in so strongly for isolation on an island, I mean this is not Scott, no it's not the "development" here, this is not the same character at all and to say nothing is wrong with him is again a practice is denial.

[Jay West]

It really seems like something major happens to Scott at the end of this. Obviously no X character can go to the point of no return as Jean, Mags, Emma, Cain, Angel, Quinten, Sabretooth, Mystique, and Apocalypse are just a few of the characters who have been villains and found some way to later join the X-men. Of course some essentially became new characters (see Apocalypse) and others reverted to their villainous ways ...the point is there is just about nothing Scott can do that some x-writer can't figure out a way to make him a hero again.

[Jmacq1]

If you say so, I mean he's the trillionare is all I'm saying.

Which has absolutely zero bearing on the conversation, but whatever.

Magneto is NOT a sympathetic well reasoned man, that's the point.

To coin a phrase: "So you know better than Chris Claremont (and just about everyone that's written Magneto since then)?" OK....

Of course onslaught could be blamed on Magneto since Onslaught was an amalgamation of the two, oh wait Mag's is a well reasoned man, I forgot

Irrelevant: It was Xavier's choices and his inability to control his own subconscious that led to Onslaught. His mind was still "broken" and he suffered no repercussions directly related to the incident.

Xavier may have paid for his sins, but not in any way related to "his mind being broken."

You seem awfully hung up on people "paying for their sins" though. It's kind of disturbing how fixated you are on fictional characters receiving some kind of comeuppance for the decisions of their writers.

Once again, precisely which repercussions do you feel Emma Frost should suffer?

And I am pointing out it actually fits with much of what has been established.

Right, except for the much greater amount of material that directly contradicts it, which you completely fail to address or just handwave away with "She's crazy!" It doesn't fit "much" of what's been established...it fits "a bit" of what's been established.

The Hellfire club brought Emma's loyalties into question right off (Where those the mental projections? There is some abiguity to that one, which actually even solidifys the point more), and in the process every questionable action is brought into a WTF moment. is much of that just shitty writing, probably, but at the same time to try and say that everything is all warm and fuzzy with Emma is simple denial of reality. Girl got some major issues and those issues seem to have effected the team as a whole.

See, here's the funny part: You're arguing something completely different now. Nobody ever said everything is "warm and fuzzy" with Emma or that she's had no influence on the team. She's morally ambiguous and manipulative, but once again...that doesn't mean she isn't loyal to the X-Men or isn't genuinely in love with Scott, or that she's telepathically pulling his strings. The difference is that you think it just HAS to be some kind of malicious intent and mental toomfoolery on her part because you're hung up on her past characterization, and my point is that the evolution into an antiheroic character has been well-documented and supported by the storytelling in the interim.

Oh, and why do you continually ignore Cassandra Nova's involvement in the Hellfire Club Projections bit? If you're going to try to give Xavier an "out" for Onslaught based on Magneto's involvement, why is it Emma Frost doesn't get the same mitigating factor for an actual mega-powerful Telepathic entity being in her head? Seems a wee bit of a double standard, there.

In addtion, there is scott himself (who has been left out of this convo mostly and let's not forget his part in his failed marrage, especially after that bonding with Apoc thing). His behavior is over the top manic, he is pushing away long time friends and allies (WOlverine, Beast, ect) and allying himself with long time enemies (Magneto), Lef tthe school he believed in so strongly for isolation on an island, I mean this is not Scott, no it's not the "development" here, this is not the same character at all and to say nothing is wrong with him is again a practice is denial.

There's plenty wrong with Scott, but you seem to be completely ignoring that there have been massive (literally world-changing) events in the last several years that have led him to his current militant mindset...most notably the fact that he's trying to keep a population of roughly 200 mutants from being wiped off the face of the Earth. Add up the Decimation with the death of Jean Grey, the complete disillusionment he's experienced with his onetime mentor (Xavier), the multitude of students (and fellow X-Men) that have been killed under his watch, and even the residual/built-up guilt over KNOWING that he's doing a lot of things and making a lot of decisions that he never would have considered viable in the past (X-Force), and it would be ludicrous to the point of insanity to expect that Scott should be "the same character" after undergoing all that, whether Emma Frost were there beside him or not (Let's not forget that forming X-Force was initially done without her knowledge).

That, and it's hardly as if Scott doesn't have a history of pushing people away, or putting up emotional walls when the pressure starts bearing down on his shoulders.

Does Emma have influence over Scott? Sure she does, but it doesn't involve telepathically pulling his strings, and as has been shown several times, he goes against her advice and desires relatively frequently. Arguably he has far more influence over her than vice-versa (to the point where fans of Emma Frost oft get annoyed that she's treated like "Scott's Girlfriend" and little else).

Again, it's perfectly possible that a writer could turn around and say "It's all Emma's fault! Scott is actually the most innocently purely innocent innocent in the history of innocence!" but you and I both know that doing so would be a tremendous cheat to the readers, and in no way consistent storytelling unless you're hung up on a cipher of a character from 30+ years ago. Arguably though, it'd be a disservice to THAT character as well, because she was portrayed as intelligent and "in control." Not some insane woman who can't keep herself from telepathically reprogramming her boyfriend to do....what exactly? What's the endgame supposed to be here?

It seems to me you're mostly worried that Scott is going to suffer "repercussions" for his actions while you think Emma is somehow "getting away" with something.

[Jmacq1]

If you say so, I mean he's the trillionare is all I'm saying.

Which has absolutely zero bearing on the conversation, but whatever.

Magneto is NOT a sympathetic well reasoned man, that's the point.

"So you know better than Chris Claremont?" OK....

Of course onslaught could be blamed on Magneto since Onslaught was an amalgamation of the two, oh wait Mag's is a well reasoned man, I forgot

Irrelevant, it was Xavier's choices and his inability to control his own subconscious that led to Onslaught. His mind was still "broken" and he suffered no repercussions directly related to the incident.

Xavier may have paid for his sins, but not in any way related to "his mind being broken."

You seem awfully hung up on people "paying for their sins" though. It's kind of disturbing how fixated you are on fictional characters receiving some kind of comeuppance for the decisions of their writers.

Once again, precisely which repercussions do you feel Emma Frost should suffer?

And I am pointing out it actually fits with much of what has been established.

Right, except for the much greater amount of material that directly contradicts it, which you completely fail to address or just handwave away with "She's crazy!" It doesn't fit "much" of what's been established...it fits "a bit" of what's been established.

The Hellfire club brought Emma's loyalties into question right off (Where those the mental projections? There is some abiguity to that one, which actually even solidifys the point more), and in the process every questionable action is brought into a WTF moment. is much of that just shitty writing, probably, but at the same time to try and say that everything is all warm and fuzzy with Emma is simple denial of reality. Girl got some major issues and those issues seem to have effected the team as a whole.

See, here's the funny part: You're arguing something completely different now. Nobody ever said everything is "warm and fuzzy" with Emma or that she's had no influence on the team. She's morally ambiguous and manipulative, but once again...that doesn't mean she isn't loyal to the X-Men or isn't genuinely in love with Scott, or that she's telepathically pulling his strings. The difference is that you think it just HAS to be some kind of malicious intent and mental toomfoolery on her part because you're hung up on her past characterization, and my point is that the evolution into an antiheroic character has been well-documented and supported by the storytelling in the interim.

Oh, and why do you continually ignore Cassandra Nova's involvement in the Hellfire Club Projections bit? If you're going to try to give Xavier an "out" for Onslaught based on Magneto's involvement, why is it Emma Frost doesn't get the same mitigating factor for an actual mega-powerful Telepathic entity being in her head? Seems a wee bit of a double standard, there.

In addtion, there is scott himself (who has been left out of this convo mostly and let's not forget his part in his failed marrage, especially after that bonding with Apoc thing). His behavior is over the top manic, he is pushing away long time friends and allies (WOlverine, Beast, ect) and allying himself with long time enemies (Magneto), Lef tthe school he believed in so strongly for isolation on an island, I mean this is not Scott, no it's not the "development" here, this is not the same character at all and to say nothing is wrong with him is again a practice is denial.

There's plenty wrong with Scott, but you seem to be completely ignoring that there have been massive (literally world-changing) events in the last several years that have led him to his current militant mindset...most notably the fact that he's trying to keep a population of roughly 200 mutants from being wiped off the face of the Earth. Add up the Decimation with the death of Jean Grey, the complete disillusionment he's experienced with his onetime mentor (Xavier), the multitude of students (and fellow X-Men) that have been killed under his watch, and even the residual/built-up guilt over KNOWING that he's doing a lot of things and making a lot of decisions that he never would have considered viable in the past (X-Force), and it would be ludicrous to the point of insanity to expect that Scott should be "the same character" after undergoing all that, whether Emma Frost were there beside him or not (Let's not forget that forming X-Force was initially done without her knowledge).

That, and it's hardly as if Scott doesn't have a history of pushing people away, or putting up emotional walls when the pressure starts bearing down on his shoulders.

Does Emma have influence over Scott? Sure she does, but it doesn't involve telepathically pulling his strings, and as has been shown several times, he goes against her advice and desires relatively frequently. Arguably he has far more influence over her than vice-versa.

Again, it's perfectly possible that a writer could turn around and say "It's all Emma's fault! Scott is actually the most innocently purely innocent innocent in the history of innocence!" but you and I both know that doing so would be a tremendous cheat to the readers, and in no way consistent storytelling unless you're hung up on a cipher of a character from 30+ years ago. Arguably though, it'd be a disservice to THAT character as well, because she was portrayed as intelligent and "in control." Not some insane woman who can't keep herself from telepathically reprogramming her boyfriend to do....what exactly? What's the endgame supposed to be here?

It seems to me you're mostly worried that Scott is going to suffer "repercussions" for his actions while you think Emma is somehow "getting away" with something.

[riot_control]

Anyone else think Spidey should be dead after that punch Colossus gave him. His face looked like a folded pillow.

[Adamassc]

Has anybody stopped and counted all the heroes that wouldn't be affected by the Alchemist's Clean Slate?

Iron Man
War Machine
Hawkeye
Black Widow
Thor
Venom
Ant-Man
Wasp
Dr. Strange
Ghost Rider
Black Panther

Those are just the major players right off he top of my head. The list of villians isn't exactly short either.

[Troynos]

Anyone else think Spidey should be dead after that punch Colossus gave him. His face looked like a folded pillow.

Yeah, Spidey should have been down after that.

#9 was probably the best issue to date.

[Troynos]

Has anybody stopped and counted all the heroes that wouldn't be affected by the Alchemist's Clean Slate?

Iron Man
War Machine
Hawkeye
Black Widow
Thor
Venom
Ant-Man
Wasp
Dr. Strange
Ghost Rider
Black Panther

Those are just the major players right off he top of my head. The list of villians isn't exactly short either.

Yeah, Jeremy Briggs may be smart, but he's not thinking it all the way through. Too many heroes and villians wouldn't be affected and the ones he lets keep their powers at the beginning wouldn't be strong enough to stop the heroes or defeat the vilians.

But it is the way a teenager would think, so Christos Gage is doing that right.

[pig iron grenadier]

So in lastest issue, Namor "fell" (knocked down and almost knocked out) and loses the Phoenix power. How did he fall? He was defeated, he wasn't killed.

Confused.

My take was that Phoenix thought he was weak so took the power back and re-allocated it. But really, does any of this shite make sense?

Zed and Jmaq's conversation should be justification enough to show that editorial at marvel hasn't been doing a good job over the past 20 years--since the early 90's really. Brevoort was the last good Editor they had and he gave up years ago apparently...

Zed and JMaq both make good points Emma is a manipulative Beeyotch, her monologue shows her past as being self-serving, evil, and unscrupulous. her monologue shows her present as she likes the x-men and scott, and is self-serving, conniving and a beeyotch.

Really they are just different shades.....Emma will reveal herself to be a troll and a traitor. Scott will die horribly or make an ultimate sacrifice or something--or that role will fall to magneto--making him a mutant messiah. In any event, no one will "win", and the Avengers will land on top because they have the "hot" momentum right now, but Cap and Tony will realize everything went too far and they will strat working together to better humanity...the end.

[Adamassc]

My take was that Phoenix thought he was weak so took the power back and re-allocated it. But really, does any of this shite make sense?

Zed and Jmaq's conversation should be justification enough to show that editorial at marvel hasn't been doing a good job over the past 20 years--since the early 90's really. Brevoort was the last good Editor they had and he gave up years ago apparently...

Zed and JMaq both make good points Emma is a manipulative Beeyotch, her monologue shows her past as being self-serving, evil, and unscrupulous. her monologue shows her present as she likes the x-men and scott, and is self-serving, conniving and a beeyotch.

Really they are just different shades.....Emma will reveal herself to be a troll and a traitor. Scott will die horribly or make an ultimate sacrifice or something--or that role will fall to magneto--making him a mutant messiah. In any event, no one will "win", and the Avengers will land on top because they have the "hot" momentum right now, but Cap and Tony will realize everything went too far and they will strat working together to better humanity...the end.

Then Juston kills Emma, and, wanting to ensure his beloved Sentinel is never threatened again, constructs an army of advanced mutant hunting robots.

[pig iron grenadier]

were there any new ones this week?

[Troynos]

Nope, was the off week. #10 will be next week.

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

Ok just finished this series and here are my thoughts.

-Good story but way too long of a series probably should have been 6 maybe 8 issues. The splitting of the Phoneix was an added wrinkle that just prolonged the obvious.

-The VS books were a mess, and proof positive is the fact that issue 6 is a comlete throw away issue. The individual fights might have been better for...

-The tie in issues...WHICH were TERRIBLE.

Overall a C for the entire series. Great idea, probably a good launching point for the Marvel Now books, but this series fell flat as hell.

[Jmacq1]

Ok just finished this series and here are my thoughts.

-Good story but way too long of a series probably should have been 6 maybe 8 issues. The splitting of the Phoneix was an added wrinkle that just prolonged the obvious.

-The VS books were a mess, and proof positive is the fact that issue 6 is a comlete throw away issue. The individual fights might have been better for...

-The tie in issues...WHICH were TERRIBLE.

Overall a C for the entire series. Great idea, probably a good launching point for the Marvel Now books, but this series fell flat as hell.

I dunno, I think if you accept the Squirrel Girl vs. Pixie story from the final issue of AvX "vs" as canon, this whole event becomes brilliant....

SPOILERS for those that haven't read it and might care: It's basically Pixie and Squirrel Girl playing what looks like Heroclix, with SG playing the Avengers and Pixie playing the X-Men. The Thing pops in and takes away their toys, warning them that they were made by the Puppet Master. Cue the typical: "Ohmigosh, You don't think we...?" "Let's never talk about this, ever...."

You can see it HERE (http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4022066.html#cutid1).

Most of AvX VS #6 was comedy oriented. It was pretty amusing.

But yes, overall the event was a mess. Poorly-written characters abound, though none more so than Cyclops and Captain America. A huge chunk of the Phoenix continuity was completely ignored ("Oh, hey Rachel. No, we just won't mention that time that you were the host for the Phoenix for an extended time and had no problems controlling it whatsoever. IT HAS TO BE HOPE!!!!").

Ironically, I did like the way Hope was written (and has been written since she arrived in the present). Yeah, she's basically a snotty little brat, but she's a fun snotty little brat. And I think I'd read an entire series based on Spider-Man and Hope, but then again Spider-Man can be enjoyable when paired with just about any character, if the writing is halfway decent (and all things considered, Spider-Man was probably one of the better-written characters in the event).

And honestly, Uncanny Avengers looks like fun despite the usual suspects bashing it for making certain segments of the X-Men "look bad." That, and the last page is one of the most bats**t crazy comic-book panels in recent memory, in a good way....Kinda like when a Russian Werebear rode a Dragon....