Yay, I found a variant

[DarkHorse]

I was looking through my ARAH comic pack Red Ninjas, and I found most have black facemasks and shin straps, but some have red.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww5/Nicodiemos/redninjas.jpg

Yo Joe doesn't list any variants; they have the red mask/ strap version in their archives -

YOJOE.COM | Red Ninja Viper (http://www.yojoe.com/action/05/redninjaviper2.shtml)

I found a variant! ;D


(countdown to someone bursting my bubble....5...4...3...2...)

[nova]

Did you open these all from comic packs yourself, or did you get a few from the "grey market"/ebay.

[Gyre-Viper]

Did you open these all from comic packs yourself, or did you get a few from the "grey market"/ebay.


^^^ what he said.

[Scoop]

I think mine came with the red mask.

I don't remember seeing a black masked version.

[Mermaniel]

Not so much a variant as much as a factory error IMO.

[nova]

Not so much a variant as much as a factory error IMO.

Not a Factory error, Most likely Pre-production Alternate color Scheme..commonly referred to as "Midnight Chinese"

Note the Black mask figures are in multiples of 5...sellers on ebay from Asia who often have "grey market" toys have been known to sell army builders in lots of 5.

[DarkHorse]

Thanks for trying to scupper the thread. These are just the ones I have left after trades, so they weren't multiples of five.

No, they are not from Chinese dumpster divers. I did get them from eBay, but they were all new. They weren't carded but still in the inserts with the weapons/ bands attached.

[nova]

Thanks for trying to scupper the thread. These are just the ones I have left after trades, so they weren't multiples of five.

No, they are not from Chinese dumpster divers. I did get them from eBay, but they were all new. They weren't carded but still in the inserts with the weapons/ bands attached.


Sorry for posting facts in your thread....I know how much facts irritate people here on Hisstank.

Sorry I made an assumption as to where you got the figures from... But Ebay "Grey market" sellers sell directly to the collector market, because of the cheap cost of these "grey market" figures, the percentage of 'grey Market" figures available to collectors in the dealer network could believable be higher than actual production figures. Even if you didn't get them in 5s from an ebay "grey market" seller, that's still probably their most likely point of origin. You never answered my initial question, "Did you open them all from carded sets yourself?"


Consider your bubble burst.
This figure isn't listed as a Variant on Yojoe.com because it wasn't shipped or packaged as a production level figure.

It is on a list I have from Patric Stewart (notpicard), who maintains Yojoe's Variation list, and is well known in Variant and Production circles. The list I have from Pat lists this Red ninja Viper as a Pre-production Variation...similar to the Light Blue Anti Venom figures.

[DarkHorse]

You never answered my initial question, "Did you open them all from carded sets yourself?"


I did get them from eBay, but they were all new. They weren't carded but still in the inserts with the weapons/ bands attached.

Bolded.

[Gyre-Viper]

Bolded.


Preproduction stuff from China has come closer to complete than not.
So weapons and inserts and bands don't budge the argument much either way.

What nova is trying to get at is that while not impossible, it is highly unlikely that these are anything but preproduction versions from China.

Which is a good thing. It means they are canceled and rarer than released versions. Hehehh.

Basically only the seller can answer the question of where he got them.

Because you have so many of them, it sounds like they were sold in
a Chinese lot as nova described. That's the norm for things like these.

[nighthawk]

I used to be the one to send all the variant updates into Yojoe...haha. However, I didn't really focus on any new items as I was doing this when Eugene was running Yojoe.

Anyways, these could still be grey market area because even though they were on the inserts with weapons and bands, they can still be pre-production.

Did you get these from a North American dealer or was it from Asia? I'm not jumping to any conclusions, just want all the facts.

[nighthawk]

Oh, and when I was collecting Oring Joes in that time frame, I got lots of pre-prod ones from Chinese sellers. They were awesome cause some were totally different and you can make new characters out of them.

[Gyre-Viper]

Did you open these all from comic packs yourself, or did you get a few from the "grey market"/ebay.

Not a Factory error, Most likely Pre-production Alternate color Scheme..commonly referred to as "Midnight Chinese"

Note the Black mask figures are in multiples of 5...sellers on ebay from Asia who often have "grey market" toys have been known to sell army builders in lots of 5.

Thanks for trying to scupper the thread. These are just the ones I have left after trades, so they weren't multiples of five.

No, they are not from Chinese dumpster divers. I did get them from eBay, but they were all new. They weren't carded but still in the inserts with the weapons/ bands attached.

Sorry for posting facts in your thread....I know how much facts irritate people here on Hisstank.

Sorry I made an assumption as to where you got the figures from... But Ebay "Grey market" sellers sell directly to the collector market, because of the cheap cost of these "grey market" figures, the percentage of 'grey Market" figures available to collectors in the dealer network could believable be higher than actual production figures. Even if you didn't get them in 5s from an ebay "grey market" seller, that's still probably their most likely point of origin. You never answered my initial question, "Did you open them all from carded sets yourself?"


Consider your bubble burst.
This figure isn't listed as a Variant on Yojoe.com because it wasn't shipped or packaged as a production level figure.

It is on a list I have from Patric Stewart (notpicard), who maintains Yojoe's Variation list, and is well known in Variant and Production circles. The list I have from Pat lists this Red ninja Viper as a Pre-production Variation...similar to the Light Blue Anti Venom figures.

Bolded.

Preproduction stuff from China has come closer to complete than not.
So weapons and inserts and bands don't budge the argument much either way.

What nova is trying to get at is that while not impossible, it is highly unlikely that these are anything but preproduction versions from China.

Which is a good thing. It means they are canceled and rarer than released versions. Hehehh.

Basically only the seller can answer the question of where he got them.

Because you have so many of them, it sounds like they were sold in
a Chinese lot as nova described. That's the norm for things like these.

I used to be the one to send all the variant updates into Yojoe...haha. However, I didn't really focus on any new items as I was doing this when Eugene was running Yojoe.

Anyways, these could still be grey market area because even though they were on the inserts with weapons and bands, they can still be pre-production.

Did you get these from a North American dealer or was it from Asia? I'm not jumping to any conclusions, just want all the facts.



And not that nova needs me to justify his existence or anything but arguing with nova is very close to arguing with Hasbro. nova knows his shit. To the point of constantly putting things out there I certainly never considered with things from my own collection. I'm not saying that makes him right or better or anything I'm just saying that he's not trying to burst your bubble as much as put forth the responsible argument for what these are. Which is what anyone should do when confronted with research or finds. Not something to be taken personally. Especially since
an unknown variation find, whether preproduction or produced... is still a cool thing. Even if it is known... it might not be widely known. Either way the discussion is healthy.

[drunknmunky]

Basically what you need to do is find a carded version of the figure to justify it as a variant as opposed to a ”midnight run” version. Nobody is trying to be a dick to you, just trying to give you some info and facts about the figures.

[pig iron grenadier]

Well, keep checking ebay..if you never see carded black mask version then you know it is a production sample...

That's just the way it will be IMO.

My guess it is a sample......cool and rarer, nonetheless.....

[Troynos]

Chances of finding a variant that the people here have not heard of or seen is very slim.

There are some big time experts around here.

[Angry.Android]

I found this thread to be both informative and entertaining. The only pre/proto/unreleased/whatever things i have ever wanted was the Jungle Stormshadow (which i missed on the bay when it was "gettable") and that wicked cool City Strike Scarlett (which i also hear is nigh ungettable).

I think it's an absolute boon that we have so many well-informed and in-the-know tankers who are happy to share what they know. I have been in other hobbies where the "gurus" jealously guard knowledge and make it generally difficult for casual hobbyists to enjoy the nuances of the hobby.

Thanks for sharing guys!

[jogunwarrior]

I think it's an absolute boon that we have so many well-informed and in-the-know tankers who are happy to share what they know. I have been in other hobbies where the "gurus" jealously guard knowledge and make it generally difficult for casual hobbyists to enjoy the nuances of the hobby.

Thanks for sharing guys!

I definitely agree. There seem to be so many little varaitions to certain figures, and tyring to identify if something is a variant, prototype, preproduction, or paint error is part of the fun. I consider myself very knowledgable when it comes to my favorite toy line, and am always humbled when I have chance to learn something new from my fellow Tankers.

[nighthawk]

During the Spy Troops era, the market was flooded with these pre-prod samples. I even had the blue Scarlett that they used the wrong paint on her chest. It was supposed to be tan but they used flesh tone. That went for crazy high amounts on Ebay (up to like $200). I waited and ended up getting it for $20 and then never saw it again. They were really cool though cause the comic pack Hawk and Stalker had a pre-prod version that Hawk was black and Stalker was white. It gave me to new characters instantly. You just had to switch the two heads though as the hands were painted properly.

However, with these pre-prod ones, some of them have lesser quality. The Hawk and Stalker I mentioned, the shoulder was not lined up properly on one so there's always a kink when you rotate his arm and on one of them, one leg always will shoot out to the side (yay! unintenional Ninja kicking action variant!), but the production one did not have those issues.

[nighthawk]

Here's a link to the Scarlett I was talking about:
YOJOE.COM | Scarlett (http://www.yojoe.com/action/04/images/scarlett6_large.shtml)

Imagine the tan on her chest was painted flesh tone.

[firefox91]

People getting angry over paint. Only on the tank.

[ResoluteBAT]

Here's a link to the Scarlett I was talking about:
YOJOE.COM | Scarlett (http://www.yojoe.com/action/04/images/scarlett6_large.shtml)

Imagine the tan on her chest was painted flesh tone.
Probably sold for that much just for the sex appeal. :D

[drunknmunky]

People getting angry over paint. Only on the tank.

Not true. Remember, I work in a body shop. There's plenty of bitching about paint there too :)

[youdoitimbusy]

[QUOTE=nova;3516469]Sorry for posting facts in your thread....I know how much facts irritate people here on Hisstank.


Consider this your warning...Don't let it happen again!

[DarkHorse]

What makes me laugh is the guys who claim to know all the facts, don't even know half of the facts.

It's like they are jealous that they didn't spot these things first, and will piss and whine until they're proven either way.

I didn't think it was that important, I was just going through old trade spares. I just thought I'd post it just in case it slipped through the net. Seems it did, seeing the response that no one has proof either way.

Btw, I bought these all from the U.S., all at different times and from different sellers over the course of a year. I always ask for figures to be shipped loose, so I'm guessing they were carded (most of the auctions were for the complete three pack, but I got them so cheap I let the sellers keep the other figs most of the time in payment for opening the pack up). I can't say the ratio of red to black paints I had as I've traded about fifteen already and didn't notice before. Just seems funny that they all come from a similar source, but have both paint apps. That is not consistant with the Chinese theory.

[Gyre-Viper]

What makes me laugh is the guys who claim to know all the facts, don't even know half of the facts.

It's like they are jealous that they didn't spot these things first, and will piss and whine until they're proven either way.

I didn't think it was that important, I was just going through old trade spares. I just thought I'd post it just in case it slipped through the net. Seems it did, seeing the response that no one has proof either way.

Btw, I bought these all from the U.S., all at different times and from different sellers over the course of a year. I always ask for figures to be shipped loose, so I'm guessing they were carded (most of the auctions were for the complete three pack, but I got them so cheap I let the sellers keep the other figs most of the time in payment for opening the pack up). I can't say the ratio of red to black paints I had as I've traded about fifteen already and didn't notice before. Just seems funny that they all come from a similar source, but have both paint apps. That is not consistant with the Chinese theory.


Doesn't matter if you got them from different sellers. Back then purchases from Chinese sellers was just as popular as it is today. But back then there was a ton more stuff being leaked out of China ESPECIALLY variation-wise. My point is preproduction versions have circulated through buyers and sellers so much over the years they tend to blend together in auctions and lots and collections.

[DarkHorse]

All the more reason to archive them then.

[DarkHorse]

And what's to say carded items are any different from loose ones? Would one carded item be more important then many loose examples?

Then let me guess, you'd need to see a store reciept lol.

Seems to me that the folk deciding on what gets added to official archives and what doesn't just make up the criteria as it suits them. :-/

Surely it would be beneficial for the entire community to just add things like this if they are so numerous (and that hasn't even been proved yet) rather than ignore them?

[drunknmunky]

And what's to say carded items are any different from loose ones? Would one carded item be more important then many loose examples?

Then let me guess, you'd need to see a store reciept lol.

Seems to me that the folk deciding on what gets added to official archives and what doesn't just make up the criteria as it suits them. :-/

Surely it would be beneficial for the entire community to just add things like this if they are so numerous (and that hasn't even been proved yet) rather than ignore them?

A carded sample would prove that the variant was in fact released as a retail version.
The people who archive the figures do their homework before they label a figure as a variant, preproduction or whatever else. There are tons of very knowledgeable people in the Joe community. Nobody is saying anything bad about you, they are simply saying that there's not much proof either way. Don't take things so personal. Nobody is attacking you, they just need more info to prove it's a variant and not something else.

[DarkHorse]

It's cool mate, I'm not really fussed either way. I'm not at all attached to the subject matter as others, I just thought I'd make a fun topic.

I just see the same guys posting negative crap in threads over and over again when anyone makes a discovery. They don't have to be so matter-of-fact, high and mighty and at other times demanding and rude about things, especially when others take the time and effort to post stuff in the first place.

Also, a carded sample doesn't mean it was definitely available at retail haha.

[nighthawk]

Also, a carded sample doesn't mean it was definitely available at retail haha.

True. I had a carded street fighter movie Ryu. It was never released to retail even though I had a carded one.

Other examples are pimp daddy Destro in 1997 and the Deep Six with Killer Whale instead of dolphin. However, those were all documented with proof as to what they are.

I do vaguely remember your red Storm Shadow though. I believe I've had a few of those before as well and they were from China. The Chinese sellers sell them in the 100's. I have a friend who used to sell these type of things but he doesn't do it anymore but I do know how they get them.

What they get can be anywhere from loose incomplete all the way up to being in a tray before carding or in the insert (in the case of 25th Vehicles). Additionally, they are just given a box of whatever the employee managed to take and it's all or nothing for them, so he may be stuck with a lot of My Little Pony after selling the Joes...haha.

I've had so many of those Chinese releases and I'm sure a lot of others did too. That was the best way to get just the army builders and the way they do shipping, it's better to just buy 10 or 20 from them.

The ones you have may possibly be legit, but for me personally, I've never seen that particular one at retail, only from China, and yes, when I'm on Ebay, I see a lot of stuff that I know is a Chinese seller selling but the seller lists that they are in the US so many of them do buy cheap overseas and sell them here.

[Dem_Yoe'z!]

Here's a link to the Scarlett I was talking about:
YOJOE.COM | Scarlett (http://www.yojoe.com/action/04/images/scarlett6_large.shtml)

Imagine the tan on her chest was painted flesh tone.

I used to have that one. One "midnight special" I still have that's sort of funky is of the 1989 SE mold in pea green with gold trim. I've heard it referred to as one of the cancelled Walmart exclusive parachute figures, but this is not true ( I had all 6 and that SE had a more conservative color scheme albeit the molds used were the same)

[spiderpumpkin]

I was looking through my ARAH comic pack Red Ninjas, and I found most have black facemasks and shin straps, but some have red.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww5/Nicodiemos/redninjas.jpg

Yo Joe doesn't list any variants; they have the red mask/ strap version in their archives -

YOJOE.COM | Red Ninja Viper (http://www.yojoe.com/action/05/redninjaviper2.shtml)

I found a variant! ;D


(countdown to someone bursting my bubble....5...4...3...2...)

Very cool variant of the regular version. I need to dig out my figures and see if ai lucked out and bought one like those. Thanks for sharing.

[DarkHorse]

Thanks mate. I got plenty to trade if you need any haha.

[nighthawk]

I used to have that one. One "midnight special" I still have that's sort of funky is of the 1989 SE mold in pea green with gold trim. I've heard it referred to as one of the cancelled Walmart exclusive parachute figures, but this is not true ( I had all 6 and that SE had a more conservative color scheme albeit the molds used were the same)

Yeah, I loved those midnight special figures. That was the best part back in the early 2000's. There'd be so many different ones popping up.

[notpicard]

I have seen this one before, but only as a loose figure from China. The one I got actually had a different waist as well because the upper half of the waist is painted brown.

That doesn't 100% rule out what you have there as a released variant. But I have never seen one carded and I was looking when they were still in stores.


Seems to me that the folk deciding on what gets added to official archives and what doesn't just make up the criteria as it suits them. :-/


I don't do that and I don't know of anyone who does that with any archive or list. The thing is, threads just like this one are constantly a built-in devil's advocate. Stuff that gets added is well scrutinized. Mistakes can still happen, but over the years it has become pretty clear what the general consensus is when a variation pops up.

I think people tend to put too much emphasis on numbers. Those are a great indicator, but some legit variations are still really hard to find...like the yellow neck Serpentor that just came up in another thread. And there have been times when I have found multiples of the same error. But that doesn't make it a variation. And it is pretty obvious that if something is never released, it is not a released variant.

I'd definitely agree that finding one carded does not mean it was released that way. I have a 25th Cobra Bazooka Trooper MOC with the holster in the back. I also have a RoC Cobra Commander with hoses carded. Those don't get archived as variations because they weren't released. But I think it is safe to say that if we can find several carded samples, it is still an indicator worth looking for.

I used to have that one. One "midnight special" I still have that's sort of funky is of the 1989 SE mold in pea green with gold trim. I've heard it referred to as one of the cancelled Walmart exclusive parachute figures, but this is not true ( I had all 6 and that SE had a more conservative color scheme albeit the molds used were the same)

^^exactly. This is why it is so important to be careful when archiving. It also makes it important to have the correct info out of the gate when showing something new. The reason those green SE figures keep being called the WM parachute figure is because they kept being listed that way on eBay. But it is actually a preproduction sample of the BJ's exclusive set Snake Eyes. And that is a cool one to me since it looks so different. I can see why it wasn't released that way, but the unique factor is a lot of fun.

Back on topic, can anyone else check their Red Ninja Vipers to see what one they got from retail? I'm not nay-saying Dark Horse or anyone else here; I don't want to discourage anyone from posting a find. But again...it is important to look into these things instead of letting errors, released variations, and unreleased samples get confused.

[nighthawk]

I found this in JoeIntel which shows what I had suspected:

Red Ninja (http://www.joeintel.com/general_page_desc.php?left_search=&cat=&countries_id=OTc5OTc5&cat_id=OTc5MTIyOTc5&cat_content_id=OTc5MTg1OTc5&image_id=OTc5NDAzOTc5)

These were the ones that the Chinese sellers were getting a hold of.

Here's the Hawk and Stalker that I was talking about and I just swapped the heads and had 2 new characters.
Hawk (http://www.joeintel.com/general_page_desc.php?left_search=&cat=&countries_id=Mzk0Mzk0&cat_id=Mzk0MTIxMzk0&cat_content_id=Mzk0MjYyMzk0&image_id=Mzk0NTQ1Mzk0)

Stalker (http://www.joeintel.com/general_page_desc.php?left_search=&cat=&countries_id=MjE5MjE5&cat_id=MjE5MTIxMjE5&cat_content_id=MjE5MjYzMjE5&image_id=MjE5NTQ3MjE5)

[Mike T]

Here's the Hawk and Stalker that I was talking about and I just swapped the heads and had 2 new characters.
Hawk (http://www.joeintel.com/general_page_desc.php?left_search=&cat=&countries_id=Mzk0Mzk0&cat_id=Mzk0MTIxMzk0&cat_content_id=Mzk0MjYyMzk0&image_id=Mzk0NTQ1Mzk0)

Stalker (http://www.joeintel.com/general_page_desc.php?left_search=&cat=&countries_id=MjE5MjE5&cat_id=MjE5MTIxMjE5&cat_content_id=MjE5MjYzMjE5&image_id=MjE5NTQ3MjE5)

Slap the black Hawk head on a Cobra Officer or Trooper body. You get a pretty nice figure out of it...much better than the head on a Stalker body.

[Clobbertron]

When I'm wrong I just say "oh cool, thanks for the info man" its never too late to turn it around.