Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

You know what failed this movie?

Darth Maul getting killed. He was 100 times more of an epic bad guy than Count Doodoo was in the others. He should have at least made it to Episode II.

Fuck. Everytime I watch it, it pisses me off.

Darth Maul made Jar Jar Binks and the shitty computer animation watchable.

[RolandofGilead]

Darth Maul had to die to make room for the next Sith.

[Crimson Rage]

The non-actor they got to play young Anakin Skywalker didn't help much either. I could have tolerated Jar Jar way more if they'd got a half-way decent brat in it, but his "yip-eee!" and "whoaaaa" emoting made me cringe.

[pig iron grenadier]

Well, I also think the prequels should have focused more on Obi-Wan failing as a teacher more than Anakin falling to the Dark Side. Or it could be Obi-Wan is more interesting than child Anakin...I dunno. Maybe Lucas shoulda just hired some writers....

[sharky]

Darth Maul had to die to make room for the next Sith.
I was thinking he was saying "f@*k Doo Ku and have Maul the main bad guy until Anakin kills him in Ep. III". And the more I think about it the more epic it would have been.

Let's say Ep. I ends with Maul killing Qui-gon and escaping or perhaps defeating Obi Wan to the point where Obi Wan must withdraw and flee. Then in Ep. II you have Maul and Obi Wan going up for a rematch. Maul injures Obi Wan and Anankin, fights Yoda, and escapes because he can't defeat Yoda. Then in Ep. III you have Anakin finally defeating Maul. That would have been a more epic build up to the Ep. III fight IMO.

Plus, maybe they could have done a build up in Mauls powers as the movies progressed just as Anankins powers become stronger from ep. II to III where he could defeat a Sith. For example, Maul could have displayed force choke in Ep. II and maybe force lightning in Ep. III as a surprise.

[pig iron grenadier]

You know what failed this movie?

Darth Maul getting killed. He was 100 times more of an epic bad guy than Count Doodoo was in the others. He should have at least made it to Episode II.

Fuck. Everytime I watch it, it pisses me off.

Darth Maul made Jar Jar Binks and the shitty computer animation watchable.

I was thinking he was saying "f@*k Doo Ku and have Maul the main bad guy until Anakin kills him in Ep. III". And the more I think about it the more epic it would have been.

Let's say Ep. I ends with Maul killing Qui-gon and escaping or perhaps defeating Obi Wan to the point where Obi Wan must withdraw and flee. Then in Ep. II you have Maul and Obi Wan going up for a rematch. Maul injures Obi Wan and Anankin, fights Yoda, and escapes because he can't defeat Yoda. Then in Ep. III you have Anakin finally defeating Maul. That would have been a more epic build up to the Ep. III fight IMO.
That would have been great. Dooku should have just been the guy setting up all of Palpatine's plans...the fallen Jedi type. Palpatine could have even double-crossed Dooku to have him be a fall guy in Ep II--using Maul to kill him.

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

I just think Darth Maul should have at least made it to Episode II before Kenobi killed him.

The whole 2 Sith thing is joke. Obviously while Maul was being trained, Darth Sidious knew about and had his eye on Count Dooku as a possible apprentice.

And while Dooku/Darth Tyranus was Sidious's apprentice, he had his eye on Anakin, among others. Granted we all know Dooku was just a placeholder in the series. But that doesn't matter.

Fuck, Dooku had his own apprentices. As did Vader. The bad guys don't even follow their own rules.

I just think Darth Maul was too badass of a character to have been killed off so soon.


Well, I also think the prequels should have focused more on Obi-Wan failing as a teacher more than Anakin falling to the Dark Side.


See I don't think Obi-Wan failed. Plenty of Jedi turned to the dark side. It was destiny. Nothing could have changed it.

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

I also think George Lucas is failing us by not giving us more movies outside of the rise and fall of Vader.

Hundreds of Jedi... tons of books... just give permission and count the money. Let somebody else tell us a story.

[bantor2]

The non-actor they got to play young Anakin Skywalker didn't help much either. I could have tolerated Jar Jar way more if they'd got a half-way decent brat in it, but his "yip-eee!" and "whoaaaa" emoting made me cringe.

Now this is pod racing! I want to blow my brains out every time i hear him squeal this line.

[Ixz72]

I just think Darth Maul should have at least made it to Episode II before Kenobi killed him.

I really don't think George Lucas himself anticipated the popularity of Darth Maul. The thing about George Lucas is he looks at the big picture of the Star Wars universe that forgets small things like "dialogue" (per Harrison Ford, you can write this shit but you can't say it) and "character development". Given that Jarjar Binks had more dialogue and screen time is a proof of this.

But giving credit where credit is due, Darth Maul was only in the SW movies enough for people to want more. He is more an assassin, warrior, foot soldier than a tactician. Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) is the opposite. I think it would have worked to have them both in Episodes 2 and 3 because of the different roles they play.

The whole 2 Sith thing is joke. Obviously while Maul was being trained, Darth Sidious knew about and had his eye on Count Dooku as a possible apprentice.

And while Dooku/Darth Tyranus was Sidious's apprentice, he had his eye on Anakin, among others. Granted we all know Dooku was just a placeholder in the series. But that doesn't matter.

Fuck, Dooku had his own apprentices. As did Vader. The bad guys don't even follow their own rules.

Agreed!!! So if there is always 2 Sith, why is there Sidious, Tyranus and Asajj Ventress and the asthmatic robot, General Grievous. Then Darth Vader and Starkiller while Vader was Sidious' apprentice.

[bantor2]

I also think George Lucas is failing us by not giving us more movies outside of the rise and fall of Vader.

Hundreds of Jedi... tons of books... just give permission and count the money. Let somebody else tell us a story.

I 100% agree with this. The Clone Wars comics are so awesome, and i'm not talking about the tv show adaptation. They could make a movie about how Quinlan Vos or Kkruhk survived order 66 and survied during the Dark Times. Also Dirge is one of the greatest Star Wars Villains ever created and I could totally see him being the main antagonist in a movie about hunting Jedis.

[bantor2]

I also think George Lucas is failing us by not giving us more movies outside of the rise and fall of Vader.

Hundreds of Jedi... tons of books... just give permission and count the money. Let somebody else tell us a story.

I agree 100% with this. The Darkhorse Clone Wars series is f'n awesome. ( not the one based off the cartoon)

They could easily do a movie showing how Quinlan Vos or Kkruhk survived order 66 and survived through the Dark Times. Also Dirge is one of the most bad ass Star Wars villains ever created. He would be a terrific antagonist in a new Star Wars movie where he's hunting jedi survivors.

[BEAM]

3 things that would have made TPM Better: Anakin should have been a teenager, Maul should have lived, and Jar Jar should have sacrificed himself for the greater good.

[pig iron grenadier]

Anakin being so young also comes off as creepy when you think of the age difference between he and Padme in context to the series.....cougar Portman!

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

Anakin being so young also comes off as creepy when you think of the age difference between he and Padme in context to the series.....cougar Portman!

Ep I: 9 year old Anakin/ 14 year old Padme.
Ep II: 19 y/o Anakin/ 24 y/o Padme.
Ep III: 22y/o Anakin/ 27 y/o Padme.

I don't think its that creepy.

[pig iron grenadier]

Ep I: 9 year old Anakin/ 14 year old Padme.
Ep II: 19 y/o Anakin/ 24 y/o Padme.
Ep III: 22y/o Anakin/ 27 y/o Padme.

I don't think its that creepy.
It should be from her perspective because she was a teen and he a pre-teen when they met...I dunno. I guess in her mind it should be weird. It just never really comes across that way in the movie except in a few forced lines.

In reality it is only a few years, but I dunno I may be wrong.


Side note.....the droids never really come off as threatening either with all the added humor. IMO.

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

It should be from her perspective because she was a teen and he a pre-teen when they met...I dunno. I guess in her mind it should be weird. It just never really comes across that way in the movie except in a few forced lines.

In reality it is only a few years, but I dunno I may be wrong.


Side note.....the droids never really come off as threatening either with all the added humor. IMO.

I think the fact that he was obsessed with her all those year (between I and II) is what's creepy. It's been 10 years kid, let it go. Surely some other trim crossed his path in that time frame.

[pig iron grenadier]

I think the fact that he was obsessed with her all those year (between I and II) is what's creepy. It's been 10 years kid, let it go. Surely some other trim crossed his path in that time frame.

Hmmm,what could have been a neat twist is if it was found out he used his force persuasion powers to make Padme fall for him the whole time. I guess a force detector like a geiger counter would be cheesy, but I'm sure you could figure out some other way to show and reveal it. Like Anakin was always twisted in his use of the force, and he gradually fell to the Dark side.

[sharky]

3 things that would have made TPM Better: Anakin should have been a teenager, Maul should have lived, and Jar Jar should have sacrificed himself for the greater good.
Hmmm, Jar Jar getting sliced in half instead of Maul. I can get behind that. :D

[BEAM]

I think the fact that he was obsessed with her all those year (between I and II) is what's creepy. It's been 10 years kid, let it go. Surely some other trim crossed his path in that time frame.

Probably not. Dude was a Jedi Padawan under strict instruction from Yoda, Kenobi, Mace. Not exactly the ones hitting the nightclub scene int he Corusant underground. Plus any female Jedi were either too alien or to chaste.

I think making him a little older and at least having hit puberty would have made more sense for his obsession with Padme. Dude gets that tingly feeling around her, first attractive girl to give him attention, the bam! Wisked away to a life of selflessness. Kid can't even masturbate.

[Unclassified]

the movie just failed entirely, i tried to watch it twice, i passed out both times, i just gave up on it..


i'll stick to the trilogy when they play it on cable..

[JokerFC]

the prequels had some great stuff in no doubt but EpI was fairly raw no doubt about it.

I thought Anakin was too young in EPI.Lucas cornered himself so many times......the Rule of two was needlessly restrictive.the reasoning behind it was sound because too many sith fight amongst themselves... but it didnt have to be 2 for fuck sake.even 3 would have gave him some effin leeway.

I waited for 3 movies for the great hero that Kenobi described in EP4to turn up.....he was turned so easily too.if he had listened to Yoda and buttoned his shit down he would have been ok.

fuckin twerp.

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

I just think Darth Maul should have at least made it to Episode II before Kenobi killed him.

The whole 2 Sith thing is joke. Obviously while Maul was being trained, Darth Sidious knew about and had his eye on Count Dooku as a possible apprentice.

And while Dooku/Darth Tyranus was Sidious's apprentice, he had his eye on Anakin, among others. Granted we all know Dooku was just a placeholder in the series. But that doesn't matter.

Fuck, Dooku had his own apprentices. As did Vader. The bad guys don't even follow their own rules.

I just think Darth Maul was too badass of a character to have been killed off so soon.




See I don't think Obi-Wan failed. Plenty of Jedi turned to the dark side. It was destiny. Nothing could have changed it.

I really don't think George Lucas himself anticipated the popularity of Darth Maul. The thing about George Lucas is he looks at the big picture of the Star Wars universe that forgets small things like "dialogue" (per Harrison Ford, you can write this shit but you can't say it) and "character development". Given that Jarjar Binks had more dialogue and screen time is a proof of this.

But giving credit where credit is due, Darth Maul was only in the SW movies enough for people to want more. He is more an assassin, warrior, foot soldier than a tactician. Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) is the opposite. I think it would have worked to have them both in Episodes 2 and 3 because of the different roles they play.



Agreed!!! So if there is always 2 Sith, why is there Sidious, Tyranus and Asajj Ventress and the asthmatic robot, General Grievous. Then Darth Vader and Starkiller while Vader was Sidious' apprentice.



Well it basically comes down to Sith being dicks.

The rule of two is more of a guideline for thw Sith to a) stay under the radar and hidden and b) stop the infighting of the Sith...BUT not every Sith follows the rule to the letter...its supposed to be a Master to hold the power, and an Apprentice to crave it...and the Apprentice is supposed to challenge for power thus becoming the Master one day.


But what ends up happeneing is the Sith in their way often cultivate several candidates for an apprentice, or sometimes one fails and another is needed.

For example Sidious had Maul however he likely was laying the seeds for Dooku in case Maul fell...Sidious may even have forsaw Maul's demise....but honestly I think both Dooku and Maul were more or less pawns...I still think the story he tells Anakin at the ballet is more truth than we know. I think Plagueus or maybe even Sidious (who found out about it and killed Plagueus) may have created Anakin for the exact porpose of being the ultimate apprentice.

Now in Dooku's case I think Ventress and Savag were his hope to be his apprentice for when he became the master. Now as for Greivous...honestly I don't think he's an apprentice at all, he shows no other force skills beyond weilding lightsabers...he may have been taught how to fight with sabers...but he's no force sensative.

As for Starkiller...its a similar thing...Vader clearly even in Revenge of the Sith is already designing to overthrough Palpatine, Starkiller and Luke as well were designed to challenge that power.

Lets not also forget that Sith have often used force sensatives as agents not necessarilly apprentices....Luke's wife Mara Jade herself was once one of the Emperor's Hands...she was no Sith but clearly trained in the dark arts...some times these are just called Dark Jedi.


So its subjective...Sith may have a Rule of Two...but that don't mean they always follow it to the letter.

[pig iron grenadier]

Well it basically comes down to Sith being dicks.

The rule of two is more of a guideline for thw Sith to a) stay under the radar and hidden and b) stop the infighting of the Sith...BUT not every Sith follows the rule to the letter...its supposed to be a Master to hold the power, and an Apprentice to crave it...and the Apprentice is supposed to challenge for power thus becoming the Master one day.


But what ends up happeneing is the Sith in their way often cultivate several candidates for an apprentice, or sometimes one fails and another is needed.

For example Sidious had Maul however he likely was laying the seeds for Dooku in case Maul fell...Sidious may even have forsaw Maul's demise....but honestly I think both Dooku and Maul were more or less pawns...I still think the story he tells Anakin at the ballet is more truth than we know. I think Plagueus or maybe even Sidious (who found out about it and killed Plagueus) may have created Anakin for the exact porpose of being the ultimate apprentice.

Now in Dooku's case I think Ventress and Savag were his hope to be his apprentice for when he became the master. Now as for Greivous...honestly I don't think he's an apprentice at all, he shows no other force skills beyond weilding lightsabers...he may have been taught how to fight with sabers...but he's no force sensative.

As for Starkiller...its a similar thing...Vader clearly even in Revenge of the Sith is already designing to overthrough Palpatine, Starkiller and Luke as well were designed to challenge that power.

Lets not also forget that Sith have often used force sensatives as agents not necessarilly apprentices....Luke's wife Mara Jade herself was once one of the Emperor's Hands...she was no Sith but clearly trained in the dark arts...some times these are just called Dark Jedi.


So its subjective...Sith may have a Rule of Two...but that don't mean they always follow it to the letter.

Someone who has only seen the movies and a few cartoons would have no clue what you are talking about. It's become so complex it's maddening......It's like Dc comics' timelines and worlds--totally confusing now. problems keep compounding themselves until they have to start throwing out the baby with the bathwater, or restricting themselves to certain areas of canon only.

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

Its really not too bad once you dive into the universe.

[Owner of a Lonely B.A.T.]

But the biggest problem with the prequels is two fold.

1) George is just not the film maker he once was, to be honest his body of work is kinda crappy, and at best Star Wars is the crown jewel. Empire he still listened to others advice. And the Indy films he was partnered with so it wasn't all Lucas...by the time Jedi rolled around he was a parent and started making films like a parent...gotta have funny music skits and fury little teddy bears for the kids...but Jedi was...tolerable.

Lucas, who by the way is an AMAZING businessman started tweeking things and looking at things more like a responsible parent and head of a mega million dollar machine...its the reason why Indy didn't shot the swordsman in Temple, but at least that was played for fun...but it was done because Indy killed a man in cold blood which seems awful for a hero to do...hardly a role model activity. Han Solo shooting first was just his natural progression from film maker to parental film maker.

2) No one says no to George anymore...he's a god...no matter how dumb something sounds they don't say no to him anymore...he could say lets do an entire series based on Dax Jettster the guy from the Diner in Attack of the Clones and they would hop right on it...no matter how stupid it sounds.

My mom put it best...Phantom is a tolerable film at best BEFORE you drop Jar Jar Binks in it which is the equivlant of dropping Fozzie Bear played by Jerry Lewis into Star Wars.

But that is what Lucas wanted. And he got it.





Now aside from Jar Jar, I have to question the wisdom of explaining the Force as microscopic creatures....I mean did ANYONE need any further explaination of the Force than Obi Wan's explaination from A New Hope? I know I didn't.

Also it was gonna be a BITCH to come up with a villian any where near as cool as Vader and yet somehow they did it...not only did they come up with a villian as cool as Vader they actually plastered this guys face on every poster, toy package and promotional tie in they could...and they take this character and basically piss him away with very little screen time and kill him off with little or no logic reason why...he literally just stands there after handing two Jedi their asses and waits for Obi Wan to kill him...WTF?

And finally the final space battle it was acceptable enough when they recycled the Death Star battle for Jedi...mainly because they upped the level of danger and made the battle a little more in depth...space battle...planet battle...battle of the wills...lightsaber battle...it really gave us a bigger an better ending than Star Wars had...more involved....but Phantom AGAIN recycles they young boy destroying a battle station...and poorly.

I think Lucas realized he needed to dial down the comedy in the next two films but he also just played Anakin disturbingly wrong...he doesn't come across as a talented Jedi who happens to become seduced...he's a whiney bitch...yes thats right the baddest dude ever is just some whiney kid? Ugh.

I will say Revenge came out the be the best of the 3 but so much of the film plays as this quick wrap up that makes little sense but to put the characters where they should be.

Yoda pretty much is a total coward, and instead of him and Obi Wan working covertly to train new Jedi, or gather up the splintered order or actively working with the Rebellion thye basically give up and go...ahhhhh screw it...maybe Anakin's kid can handle this in 20 years or so...not that we'll prepare him for that I mean the greatest Jedi Knights and Masters have trained since childhood so maybe we can heartedly train this kid and well screw it.


The expanded universe stuff tends to help explain some of the stupidity Lucas dropped on us for no reason, but you do have to sorta just ignore some of the stuff that makes no sense.

[Kungfuguy]

So many problems. Too long to list. It's all George's fault. Ultimately, no one had the courage or authority to say NO to George. So he indulged himself because he had the power, money, and technology to do so. From the weak story, bad acting, bad casting, over-cooked effects, racist voice work, …………..it's all there! I just cringe when I watch it.

[the odinson]

i will never understand the notion that darth maul was the bright spot of ep. 1, as i will never understand the notion that jar jar was what ruined it. the whole thing, top to bottom, opening credits to final scene is a train wreck, incoherent and painful to watch. i just don't get how anyone can find any redeeming value in such a bad, bad movie.

[Grendel]

I agree that the whole rule of 2 thing was stupid. Why would anyone want to train an apprentice knowing that they would try to kill you eventually. why would the emperor encourage Vader to shift Luke to darkside. It made no sense.

Obi was supposed to be an awesome Jedi, but all I saw was him bumbling around and needing to be saved by Anakin.

Anakin too young for first episode.

Anakin dumb lucking the destruction of the ship.

Jar Jar

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

Let's not get off subject arguing the faults of Episode I.

Darth Maul handled 2 highly trained Jedi, killing one.

Darth Maul vs Anakin Skywalker (or Obi-Wan Kenobi) would have been an epic fight at the beginning Episode III.

[BEAM]

Ric Olie being Captain Obvious:

"Enemy fighters straight ahead"
"Shield Generator's been hit"
"There's the blockade"

It was like he's giving screen direction for the actors in front of the green screen.

Truth be told, I rewatched Ep1 on Blu-ray and it wasn't as bad as I remembered. There were some good moments in the movie. I thought Liam Neeson gave the best performance.

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

I'm bumping my own thread because I can.

I've been reading the Star Wars book Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. If you haven't, you should. It's pretty good.

Anyway, Spoiler Alert:

One character Darth Maul fights in the book is Anoon Bondara, a Twi'lek Jedi Master, who is considered one of, if not the best in using a lightsaber.

Maul thrashes his ass in less than one chapter. Darth Maul beat the absolute best the Jedi have. Anoon Bondara knew he couldn't win, Darth Maul sensed it, and Bondara ended up sacrificing himself.

Phuck. Darth Maul should have lasted longer into the prequels.

[pig iron grenadier]

I'm bumping my own thread because I can.

I've been reading the Star Wars book Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. If you haven't, you should. It's pretty good.

Anyway, Spoiler Alert:

One character Darth Maul fights in the book is Anoon Bondara, a Twi'lek Jedi Master, who is considered one of, if not the best in using a lightsaber.

Maul thrashes his ass in less than one chapter. Darth Maul beat the absolute best the Jedi have. Anoon Bondara knew he couldn't win, Darth Maul sensed it, and Bondara ended up sacrificing himself.

Phuck. Darth Maul should have lasted longer into the prequels.

I'm pretty sure George doesn't really like 2 of the 4 or 5 favorite Star Wars characters. He dislikes Boba Fett and Darth Maul--'nuff said.

[GI FLINT]

meh, most jedi get talked about as being great swordsmen.

mace, kit fisto, anakin

from wookipedia

"Plo Koon was a powerful Jedi Master and the mysterious Sith Lord Darth Maul considered him to be one of the greatest Jedi warriors of his time though they never dueled one another."

throw in kyp durron, galen marek, kyle katarn, ulic qel droma, revan,....everybody the eu produces is super-duper.

maybe we should start a fanboy greatest jedi swordsman list, and then watch as we all get banned for our nerd rage that we display defending our choices.

[PitViper]

I remember when Darth Maul bought it, I was just like "what? that's it!?!?"

Does anyone remember how BIG the idea of Darth Maul was? I remember seeing pics of him in Entertainment and Rolling Stone magazine, he was everywhere leading up to the movie.

While I'm not a big fan of Episode I, it's redeeming quality is the short bits we see Darth Maul in it. I would say it's worth owning for him alone.....well thats why I bought it anyway.

[CornDog_The_Ninja]

Take this for what it's worth, but Wookieepedia says Darth Maul isn't dead and may return in Clone Wars season finale.

[PitViper]

I'll tell ya what, after what we've seen in the prequels with the sword play and all.......Luke sucks.