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Thread
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What secrets lurk in the filecards?
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03-13-2009, 04:14 PM
oliverbox
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanksmasher
Well, I've just read the last few pages here and I must say that there are some good points on both sides. Colonel Hawk provided some really interesting information about Hama and the limitations of his work, but I don't see any fault with Oliver's assumption about command. I agree that Hama obviously had to overcome a lot of challenges set by Hasbro, and this explains some of the abnormalities that we find in the Joeverse. I think Hama is obviously familiar with the military and special forces, probably at least as familiar as I am, but there are some things that just don't make sense, and I'm not sure who is responsible.
But here's something to consider: tank commanders do not have to be officers. In a typical platoon of four tanks, there are four tank commanders. One is a platoon leader (O-2) and the others are all sergeants: one E-7 platoon sgt and two E-6 staff sgts. The gunners are usually E-5s and the drivers and loaders are either E-3 or E-4. So why would Hama insist that Steeler be an officer, if indeed that is what he did? I'm not saying he didn't do this, but it wouldn't have been incorrect for Hasbro to call Steeler a tank commander with an E-6 grade if that's what they wanted to do; however, to do something like call him a tank platoon leader with an E-6 rank would have been a mistake because platoon leaders are officers, not staff sgts.
Also, Oliver is correct to say that an E-7 Delta operator is not going to have less experience and training than an E-5 Delta operator, precisely because the E-7 has been around longer. When a new E-5 gets to become a Delta operator and joins a Delta team that has E-7s and E-8 that have been there awhile, when is this E-5 going to be giving these guys orders exactly? Now maybe there's an E-5 who has a particular set of skills or specific training, as in EOD, that others don't have, but that doesn't mean he's in charge of the E-7 when the mission requires an EOD specialist. It just doesn't work that way. The E-5 can instruct the E-7 on things to do and give suggestions and advice about what should be done--and the man in charge should probably listen--but the team leader (who will have the highest rank) is going to be the one to give orders based on the E-5's expertise. The E-5 isn't going to give the orders. The military isn't run from the bottom up. There's a reason why officers lead NCOs and NCOs lead privates and why higher ranking officers or NCOs are in charge of lower ranking officers and NCOs respectively.
Now this doesn't mean that you'll see a green-eared 2nd LT bossing a Sgt Major around like he's some kind of private, because that LT would later get his ass chewed. High ranking NCOs get a lot of respect because of their experience and knowledge, but the butter bar officer still always outranks the Sgt Major.
Of course there are times when a higher ranking officer or NCO might accompany a team as an observer, which means he is not the guy leading the mission. The higher ranking observer can essentially "take orders", but he isn't officially getting told what to do.
In all honesty, the joeverse doesn't precisely resemble any real military unit. As it's structured with armor, artillery, air support, naval support and men and women of all ranks, including an E-3 Ambush, they are not exactly like Special Forces, Rangers, Delta or even the regular infantry. The Joes are certainly similar to real military units, but they are a hybrid of many types. Now, there are some inconsistencies and inaccuracies and I'm not blaming (nor do I think anyone else here is either) Larry Hama for these small flaws. I'm sure mistakes were made by all parties involved in the process, and that's ok. We're all just trying to piece it together.
I'm looking forward to hearing what Oliver has to say about Delta but I've also enjoyed hearing Col Hawk's view of Hama's involvement. I don't see any need to offend or be offended here. No one has to leave but saying someone is flat out wrong is a tad strong. Let's reconsider the arguments and give credit where it's due.
You've made excellent points, Tanksmasher, and offered a very needed outside perspective of moderation and common sense. I never said Colonel Abernathy needed to leave... not once. That was his suggestion and his decision.
I also don't feel he addressed any of the points in my argument - about Hama or Delta Force. It would seem to me that the Colonel is obviously well versed in the "Behind the scenes" story of the Joes, but not so much on the way the Military actually works. Due credit is always to be respected and taken under advisement... however, careful reading of an argument with which one is taking issue is also a good rule of thumb.
Because for all the controversy that Mr. Hama may have had with Hasbro, the fact still remains that he didn't have access to all the characters when he started writing, and all his efforts were for a comic book that was aimed at 6 - 14 year old boys. None of the "Behind the scenes" story of Hama's time with G.I. Joe disputes those facts.
If Mr. Hama had had all the characters from the start, and was told to write a series of novels for adults, we might have ended up with a very different Joeverse indeed. That's all I was really saying - and that was never addressed.
In any case, I have sent Mr. Hama our next question and I'm currently waiting for his response. We'll just have to see what he says.
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