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What secrets lurk in the filecards?
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09-03-2011, 05:47 PM
oliverbox
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
BUDS and SQT are the "weed out" process for Navy SEALs. It's not about being better or worse. It's about doctrine. Navy SEAL doctrine is to work in pairs. It's part of being a combat swimmer organization. If you have an equipment malfunction underwater, you can't buddy breath by yourself. Navy SEALs don't have a reputation for being quitters.
It stands to reason, that if ST6 is really equal to Delta, then their selection and training should be comprable. Since you seem to think there's some analogy to SBS/SAS and ST6/Delta, SBS and SAS both go through a very similar Selection Course... Something Delta copied, but ST6 evidently doesn't. Regular SEAL Teams are supposed to be on par with Army SF... SF has the Q course as it's "weed out" and selection process. Delta and ST6 are supposed to be Tier 1 units... so Delta doesn't just say, "Hey, soldier, you did great at the Q-course and in the Groups. Welcome aboard. We start training Monday for Delta." They still have to go through the "Long Walk" to even start Training. ST6, from what you've said, doesn't have a comparable process.
I said the SBS was better than the SAS, not more famous. They do all of the same missions as the SAS, plus the added swimmer canoeist missions. SBS has basically the same mission profile as ST6. It doesn't matter that they are Royal Marines. They do the same job.
That's like saying that any unit with the same mission is equal to any other unit with the same mission. The SBS doesn't go through BUD/S, and there's very little to indicate that the SBS trains with ST6 the same way Delta trains with the SBS. Besides that, where are you getting this argument that the SBS is better? Says who? They may have an expanded mission profile, but that doesn't mean they're actually doing the job better. If it's an aquatic/amphibious mission, the SBS is better suited for it. If it's a strickly overland mission, the SAS is probably better. If the SBS were just "Better", then in this time of military cutbacks, why wouldn't the Ministry of Defense simply say, "We're just going to shut down the SAS, because the SBS does everything better... so we're just going to expand the SBS."
You don't think Navy SEALs do long distance land patrols? It's not their bread and butter, but it's in their bag of tricks. It's something they train to do.
Sure, it's in their wheelhouse... but I don't know a a unit that carries guns downrange that don't consider long distance patroling in their "bag of tricks". The Army leg Infantry is pretty good at long distance patroling. So are the Marines, and the Airborne... the Rangers are REALLY good at it. Heck, I bet if you and I got some rifles, some boots, and some camo, and reviewed the FM 7-8, we could probably train up and do a long distance patrol in a few monthes... but that doesn't mean we're going to be really good at it. Just because we know how to do it and practice it a time or two, doesn't mean we're on par with guys who do it for a living.
What is it you think the Navy SEALs are so deficient at doing? They rarely work in large groups like the Rangers. They don't turn civilians into armies like SF. That's not their mission. As far as, first combat training. Does it really matter to the end product? There are plenty of PFCs in RASP and the Q course that took boot camp, AIT, jump school route with no stops in between. Marine Recon platoons are the same way with guys going the boot camp, SOI straight to BRC. MARSOC may be a little different. I believe there is a time in service requirement before you can take the assessment. Even the Royal Marine Commandoes take civilians of the street. They are quite SF or SEALs, but they are an elite military unit that does special operations.
I think they're over rated in nearly every mission parameter. With the possible exception of underwater demolitions and long distance swimming, there is a superior force for every other mission we need a Special Forces unit for. When the Marines stood up MARSOC, they didn't emulate the SEALs, even though it would have made a lot of sense to copy their sister service's training/doctrine for special ops. Rather, MARSOC copied Army SF - their course includes an almost exact copy of "Robin Sage". And the Marines pride themselves on being amphibious... if the SEALs are so great - because they claim to be so good in any environment, but especially amphibious operations - then why didn't the Marines pattern MARSOC after the SEAL Teams?
But here's a question: Why are you so determined to defend the SEALs and ST6? What's at stake in this argument for you?
It takes more than just completing BUDS to be a Navy SEAL. Many still washout in SQT.
Not that many. If they make it through the Hell Week, the attrition rate drops dramatically. Something like 95% of the guys who graduate from BUD/s make it through SQT, according to Dick Couch's "The Finishing School". For the vast majority, if they make it through Hell Week, unless they get hurt, they'll become SEALs.
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